I don't understand how you perform a test on an idea that may revolutionize a system to work better/more efficient when you DON'T have a baseline, that YOU conducted, for comparison.

(Heck, you could fudge the baseline to make the new way look even better.) Not that you would but...

Without that baseline you haven't really proven the idea.

I would suggest side by side 911s, as identical as possible, with the old and new systems in place and running them on the same settings. Post your findings with the photos for proof.

I don't think anyone could disprove your theory that way.

"Why..."

To establish a "baseline"....SmileWavy

If you wish to sell your PFC, or even just promote them to show off your ingenuity, you need to have actual data to support your claims of improvement over the OEM configuration.

Since your latest "invention" appears totally illogical, readers are being quite fair in asking for data that validates your claim. Why would anyone go to the expense of "proving" out your "invention" when it seems so very obvious that any advantage it offers only exist in your mind. Waste of time and expense absent data giving validation.

My frost free frig has 2 condensers, the one on the bottom, first in the flow line, that is fan cooled, and the one on the back that just relies on convection airflow.

Other than less effectively evaporating the condensate in the drip pan, what would be the logical advantage behind reversing the order of the flow?

Or is this too "out of the box" thinking for your WIDE range of refrigeration experience and expertise?

Wayne I will respond to your post probably later today

Just know I created this thread NOT TO SELL ANYTHING I MAKE

But give something away to 911 owners and DIY'ers that is pretty cool I won't make a penny on because I am giving it away for free!

Sure I could make money with this discovery and I am SURE others will, but I have other fish to fry and don't need this for what I make, although I already use it too and you can see pictures showing it working on very happy clients 911's

REVERSING THE GASES WORKS GOOD!

Then why not testimony from those "very happy clients"...?

I assume they paid a hefty price for your ingenuity if not actual labor and parts.

In this particular case pictures appear to be worthless.

However, a before and after video of how long it takes to cool down the cabin with and without the "reverse gas flow" system enhancement would go a long way.

Once again, no one is questioning that the system will work, the problem is that simple logic dictates that there can be NO A/C performance improvement by just "reversing the flow".

One possibility jumps out at me.. that makeshift fan for the front condenser...

Was it there "before and after", or did you discover a non-working front blower after the initial non-reversal test, before the "reversal of gas flow?

In return for the time, effort, and money invested it should work BETTER than non-reversed, not just GOOD!

Howdy Wayne,

I think DIY'ers that are interested in this should test it their self on their 911 and prove it works or it doesn't for themselves; but I know it works very well

I have installed my invention 3 times on clients 911's and proved it worked excellently with my pfc's to others

I have no interest to market this that is why I am giving it away, let others prove it works, or charge big bucks to do this for you

However, I will possibly help a select group of DYI's that pool their resources together, selects one of their 911's, already have all the needed tools; buys some temporary hose and fittings and hose clamps and R134A gas etc, which will cost them (I don't know exactly) maybe 100 bucks or so???

The test car can leave everything in place For A Temporary Static TEST, (All the a/c components must already work well!!!) and including whatever needs to be disconnected, and they can connect temporarily whatever needs to be connected to prove this works; And I will tell them how to do this by giving information, to let them prove it to themselves.

Or I HAVE ALREADY GIVEN PLENTY OF INFORMATION HERE SO THEY CAN FIGURE THIS OUT AND DO IT THEIR SELF

The tan swan reversing the gases
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428719554.jpg

The Tan Swan reversing the gases
This 911 has every part of the a/c system changed into A BRAND NEW A/C SYSTEM
Using only new technology throughout
It uses a SMART VOV instead of a thermal Expansion valve notice far right SMART VOV expansion tank
IT GETS VENT TEMPS IN THE 30's without freezing

The Tan Swan Reversing The Gases
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428722244.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428722318.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428722386.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428722518.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428722885.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428722994.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428723106.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428723191.jpg

How did you justify the cost to 3 clients without having comparison data....?

I would think at least one of them could help you remember your sales pitch.

The Tan Swan Reversing The Gases
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428724749.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428724983.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428725794.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428727481.jpg

This evaporator Blower fan and motor pumps in 4 to 5 CFM of air for the airvents than the old OEM unit

Just Ronnie's type. He likes them, ummm, "mature".

Because when you make claims of "better", you need a BASELINE so that you can claim what your "better" means. Sure, your junk may be better than nothing. I'll spot you that one. But better than the original system? Prove it. The original system with the flow to the condensers in reverse order? Prove it. Your junk in original order? Prove it. Your junk in reverse order? PROVE IT.

Until you do, you just look silly. wwest looks like an AC scholar compared to you. I can't believe I just strung those words together.

The Tan Swan Reversing The Gases Vent Temps in the 30s
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428729864.jpg

Front New Design PFC high speed blower 5 times more CFM than the original OEM underpowered blower
This puppy really moves some air

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428730337.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428730524.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428730766.jpg

Eric, never in a zillion years would I try to "get with" your wifeypoo, and frankly, I'm hurt that you would think me capable of such a betrayal!!! :(

Tan Swan Reversing The Gases
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428732351.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428732478.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428732611.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428732933.jpg

The Tan Swan Reversing The Gases
 

Nice work, Reid. I think a very good front condenser blower is a key part of your arrangement. The 964's used a front fender condenser with a huge blower.
Thanks,
Dave

Also, too bad you don't have a baseline, Reid. But guys, think about it. When you are trying to improve a system, you make many incremental changes over time. Reid has obviously done this over a period of time. Reversal was just one of many of these steps. Each time he feels he has something better to offer.
In order to have a baseline, he would need a perfectly functioning stock system. Where is he going to get that? He gets clients with problems and tries to give them the best product he has in the current stage of his development. No baseline. Just the knowledge of each improvement working together.
Once again, his presentation is abrasive, but take his ideas as something that work, and may be better than what you now have. Maybe not. A guy doing a full a/c strip and replace may be in a position to try them.
Good luck,
Dave

THANK YOU Dave McKenz !!!

"THE TAN SWAN" A/C SYSTEM was a completely NEW engineering RE-DESIGN OF EVERYTHING on an early model 911 and converted into state of the art technology

So of course included my Proven discovery of reverse the gases from THE BLACK SWAN; as part of the TAN SWAN full A/C System re-design OF EVERY A/C COMPONENT

Dave you are absolutely correct about the need for a GOOD front condenser blower! And for THE TAN SWAN this was a real challange to say the least

AND with the invention of reversing the gas's it becomes even more important if you want to make it really perform optimal

Dave,

Here is the problem I see with Reid's approach. Technical viability aside, it is a business model/support problem.

Ok, let's say your the average novice DIYer that knows little about A/C technology. You have about 3 choices:

1) You can buy from a company like Griffiths where you get a complete package, instructions and post-sales tech support help.
2) You can buy from some other companies that will sell you a packaged solution but really recommend that you have it installed by a pro. Let's say you get "variable" support.
3) You can buy all the components yourself and completely roll your own solution.

For people who have little experience and just want to solve the problem, options 1 & 2 are understandably more appealing, right?

Now with option 1 & 2 I can't imagine the support call if you vary from their provided instructions and try Reid's idea. If you were in their shoes would YOU put any guarantees behind something where the user "went off course" to try an idea? I think most reasonable people would say no.

So, we're left with a target market for Reid's idea of people that fall in option 3 -- the complete DIYer that has complete faith and confidence in their knowledge and abilities AND the time and cash to burn if the idea doesn't pan out. And where would you go for assistance? Reid?

Most people that I think fall into option 3 seem to be panning Reid's idea. Why do you suppose that is? Most people do a risk/benefit analysis when making a decision. It seems the jury is saying they fail to see a SUPERIOR benefit as Reid claims. What people seem to believe is that it is a push. The burden of proof is on Reid because it's his claim. If he was a bit more humble I don't think he would get the pushback he gets, but that is a different discussion.

Now I'm all for trying ideas. I've tried some things myself in the spirit of innovation. Sometimes ideas pan out and sometimes they don't. I have no problem with that.

My problem with this thread (not "treads" -- those are the things you step on) is that TYPING SOMETHING IN ALL CAPS DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. Look at all the great threads here where people have painstakingly described an idea, shown step by step how they did it and documented their success and failure.

Does Reid do this? No, he comes on here and plays mental games with people giving us "hints" and telling us he isn't going to spoon feed us dullards.

I've seen this personality type before. He needs someone to validate how smart he thinks he is. That is his reason for coming on here and saying the same thing over and over again and playing games. I don't have the time or patience for that. You may. Bless you if you do.

Reid, my opinion is either be a part of the community and quit playing games or GTFO. I am not wasting any more time on this.

Dave, you got one thing right -- he has an approach like 80 grit toilet paper.

Reid, can you tell us more about this blower? Thanks!

Tirwin, I know what you mean. I think his presentation is not well targeted. Does he want people to buy a product? I don't really think so. I think he wants to show off his successes, much like anyone here who posts about their suspension project or engine rebuild. Not sure why he comes off so negative but that's just him, I think.
So far his ideas include: Parallel flow condensers, improved airflow to front and rear condensers, reversed condenser order, orifice tube evaporator system, improved evaporator and blower, electronic a/c control. These are all at least interesting ideas, and some are well accepted by most a/c guys.
He is obviously proud of his results, and wants to share, but also some credit for his efforts.
I don't really pay much attention to the BS, so without that, this is a two page thread with some decent info.
Thanks,
Dave

zippy_gg It's a Spal single blower model 004-A41-28S. You can look up the specs on-line and it sells for about $175 bucks.

Thanks Crown!

Proper inlet, centrifugal flow, direction, perfect for cabin heat blower upgrade, if it can be fitted.

But a front PFC with only this blower for cooling, absolutely no forward speed air cooling? What must have those German's been thinking, relying mostly on forward roadspeed for condenser cooling...??

How well does that Spal blower work with the trunk lid closed and sealed?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428769179.jpg

With all the time and money Reid has available it's a real shame he hasn't found an intellectual advisor to keep him from going down blind alleys....

The stock blower has an air inlet that should provide intake air for this blower. The front compartment is not sealed if this is used. The stock duct could be enlarged or modified to attach to the blower intake.
Dave

The Tan Swan Reversing The Gases
 

Before the Tan Swan front PFC blower that I showed here I actually used, I worked on making a different front PFC blower set of fans I designed for the Tan Swan I decided not to use that blow a very high CFM or air flow

But after fully installing the front PFC with these fans grouped together on the 911

Although they worked extremely well and put out enough CFM to help easily make vent temps in the 30s @ 95 F degrees INSTALLED and the Tan Swan Driving tests all went fine


I did not like the ground clearance this very thin and high speed fans added

I decided to scrap them and design a better solution







http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428770136.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428770416.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428770631.jpg

How much amperage you drawing total with those fans?

NOT LARGE ENOUGH OR EVEN CLOSE for the CFM this large blower sucks and blows

Tippy I can't remember exactly but not enough to matter, a guess mayby 5-10 amps?

I still have these as I did not use them for the Tan Swan

The large Blower kicksass but is difficult to install and requires some body modification
PLUS A Shroud

So can we assume that your ductwork shown on post 295 goes through trunk floor and then your blower attaches directly to the ductwork. If this is true then why the small diameter holes in the ductworks where blower attaches? Are you forcing air through those tiny holes? Not questioning your intelligence but, only trying to determine your logic.

I believe it. The stock front condenser blower is very small.
Dave

OK Reid, I am starting to see your process. You dealt with condenser cooling capacity by sending hot gas to the front condenser first. You juiced up that heat exchanger by using PFC and a massive blower. That is a crucial idea. That is what Porsche did on the 964. It worked so well that they eliminated the rear lid condenser completely. I now understand why adding Spal fans to the rear lid seen unnecessary to you. If your front condenser is that good, who needs more rear condenser power.
Many of us who have preserved the stock layout have tried to juice it up with other choices. Wwest and I have increased the air flow over the rear condenser. Griff has added a rear fender condenser/fan. These are all ways of upgrading condenser capacity. Yours is a good way, but it is not the only good way.
If I was dealing with a clean sheet design, I would probably got the 964/993 route. Your solution is really a variant of that. There is no need for only one design to be OK.
Dave

One more thing. Let's not forget these were R12 designed stock systems. Our design responses are largely directed to the difference that R134a requires. Different responses, but not all bad.
Dave

Reversing the gas's
 

Something I am working on for someone today


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428777412.jpg

This thread name was carefully chosen for what I am trying to convey and give to early model 911 owners

FOCUS ! = “A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's”

It’s not what I make!

It is not blowers or fans !

ITS NOT WHAT Griffiths makes or does!





THINK FIRST

“A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's”
You really need to figure THIS OUT AND TRY IT, I think it will put a big smile on your face!
YOUR GASES ARE WRONG FOR THE BEST WAY TO MAKE COLD!


Dave forget the fan mentality for a moment, Although a better fan on the front condenser helps ; an additional rear fan is Absolutely Not Needed; you already have a great one back there if you use it wisely and let it do its job properly

Your getting close to figuring this out

dont confuse yourself with the 964

Thanks Reid. I am just trying to understand why your system works so well. Front condenser first must have some advantage that is not otherwise obvious, besides avoiding engine heating.
Dave

" Reversing the gas's "
 

Forget my system and my designs

" Reversing the gas's "


THIS discovery

Should make all/every EARLY MODEL 911's A/C systems run much more efficent to make colder A/C;

Plus ALSO get much lower oil temperatures when its hot outside and the A/C is being used at the same time


" Reversing the gas's "
TELLS YOU HOW TO DO IT