EFI - don't foget the Aussie product (Injection Perfection)

[CamB]

I can't speak for the quality of any of the products, but they look cool and compared to TWM they are cheap. Someone buy some and make it work and report to the BBS!!!

http://www.injectionperfection.com.au/html/default_six_cylinder_porsche_price.html

Remember those are A$, and the rate to US$ is slightly over US$50c:A$1. And for exported goods you might get the 10% GST back...

[A Quiet Boom]

OK, crazy idea time! Has anyone ever though of using 6 four or six cylinder throttle bodies and a custom linkage. I know that the old 5.0 Fords came stock with a 60mm so I'd guess a 40-48mm stock TB should be easy to find. Manifolds would be a straight formard welding operation once you machined top and bottom plates and cut tubing to length. Call me crazy but I thought of this a long time ago as a neat project for a V-8 just never had the $$$$ or time to do it. The benefits of IR induction are fantastic and I would think they'd be even better with EFI. OK I'll go back to my rubber room (laboratory) now

[CamB]

Well, I've started the crack-smoking ideas for my BMW - "tii" = MFI like the early 911s.

I'd like individual throttle bodies, but don't want to pay out for EFI ones (like injection perfection), then pay out again for getting them modified for the MFI injectors.

I found myself wondering about "cheap" alternatives. I mean, DCOE carbs have throttle butterflies - maybe if I can find a cheap set of those with good butterflies and somehow use the existing MFI injector manifold on the BMW.

The linkage would be tough - for MFI you need to be able to set it so the throttle closed position has the MFI pump at the "idle" position and the throttle fully open position has the MFI pump at "full throttle" position. But I guess that would be doable too.

But I think I know where I can get a space cam for the BMW which will suit a much wilder cam than the standard one. I really want 170hp and don't want to go to carbs.

[Matt Smith]

Thats some decent krak you've got in your pipe Cam. The DCOE idea came to me a few years back, but I think there's an easier way. So far the beema has individual injectors right? Into the heads? And a single shared butterfly/TB?

How about a trip to Pick-a-Part and see what the Hondas have? Some may have the individual TB's and linkages. A quick cut & shut with the trusty mig and you've got a wikked system for the same price as my Nardi wheel.

That classic race Beema would sound hella sweet with some carefully disguised el stocko rice steamers strapped to the head.

Lets go on sat.

[CamB]

Yep, the injectors are mounted into a separate manifold, and the challenge would be adopting some kind of el-cheapo throttle body setup to attached to that manifold.

Sat is out (marriage crap), Sunday is good. Something out there must have some useful bits.

[Matt Smith]

Surely there could be no finer marriage than that of a head crying out for flow and a manifold willing to give freely? What is crap about that?

I'm serious though. Some of those high spec little hondas & toyotas have trick individual TB's, and Pick-a-Part has loads of them.

For anyone lurking, we have this clean & green recycling scheme over here whereby all the used Japanese import cars that our government so wisely incouraged us to import to 'raise our overall vehicle standards' in New Zealand have, understandably, got to go somewhere when they die (usually about 5-8 years after arriving here).

The local council runs a collection system, tows the cars to a large, orderly yard and charges a 50c entrance fee to go in and take off what you want with your own tools. Then they charge next to nothing for the parts. This is Pick-a-Part.

The beauty of it all is that people imported some pretty crazy, high hp Jap stuff here in the first instance, so there is tons of good gear floating around.

None of it is any good for the PORSCHE (avoiding off topic closure), but perhaps it may fit the bill for a hp hungry penny pincher like Cam We'll see!

Mind you, not all of the stuff is Japanese. I recall seeing a VW bus, an Austin Maxi, a 450 V8 Mercedes, a few XJ6's and a vintage Humber Super Snipe out there recently. There is hope of finding a PORSCHE after all.

[Wrecked944]

I just checked out the site and saw they include 42lb Ford Motorsport Injectors for $1446. Youch !! I've been pricing the 24lb and 30lb Ford versions and they are waaaay cheaper. If I recall, CamB, you were thinking of using just 30lb injectors (for your 270hp 911). Might not the 42lb babies cause some idle problems?

But so long as you are willing to pass the crack pipe, let's ask the "over the top" question: How hard would it be to fabricate throttle bodies? Need they be made from metal? Perhaps carbon fiber (i.e. easier to form into tricky shapes)? What, exactly, are the compnents of a throttle body and can they be fabricated from aluminum, carbon fiber, etc?

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by JanusCole
I just checked out the site and saw they include 42lb Ford Motorsport Injectors for $1446. Youch !!

Janus, that's Ausie dollars so cut it in half to get $US price. Still pretty expensive!
-Chris

[CamB]

I like this talk of fabbing throttle bodies. Keep it going.

The conversion stuff is not something I need for my 911 - I am ok now with 944T injectors (whatever they are in lb/hour).

I'm just trying to convince someone else to do it!

They may be injectors and t-bodies aimed at a 3.6 conversion?

Cam

[911pcars]

Not that Webers, or for that matter Zenith carbs, look like MFI throttle bodies, but if one removes the fuel supply (and fuel), are these not the equivalent of throttle bodies suitable for such as system? My MFI "S" heads already have a threaded opening in the head for an injector. Just need an injector manifold system and a smart ECU, right?

Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars
Early 911S Registry

[emcon5]

Originally posted by A Quiet Boom
OK, crazy idea time! Has anyone ever though of using 6 four or six cylinder throttle bodies and a custom linkage.

I am still waiting for someone to convert to 6 Mikuni motorcycle carbs. 500cc bikes would be perfect.

Tom

[pete98m3]

uh guys...


lol... hate to burst ur bubble but TWM already makes a kit for porsche 6's

btw no stock hondas ever ran individual throttles, the only company i know that's done it stock is bmw...

[RLJ]

You guys are thinking like the guys at WWW.diy-efi.org those folks are building their own stuff, injecting bikes, Chevy motors, Ford motors, even boats and Porsche motors.

Some of them are programers and understand zeros and ones much better than I.

There are ways to do it and not spend a ton of money. I hope to transform my motor from PMO's to EFI for about $3000 US. I think that is cheap for a quality induction system, that really works. I have the throttle bodies and need a ECU.

I want a system that uses parts like mapp sensors and injectors that I can buy at a NAPA store not from some special dealer. Out here in wetern rural America all of the auto parts stores can get you any stock part you want over night. If I go for a drive and break down out in the bushes I don't want to be stranded until I can UPS in some special parts.

Next spring "Iris" is going to rock and roll guys.

Randy Jones
1971 911

[slammed1000]

$3150.00 is not bad for a complete fuel system that works! i would think that the 42lbs fuel injectors would be over kill for a smaller displacement motor but you can get 19-24lbs injectors for around $200.00 from parts suppliers in the muscle mustang magazine. buy the system less the injectors for $2500.00 u.s and add injectors once you get it. i couldnt find out what type of ecm it uses but if it programable or if it doesnt need a mass air unit for injector changes i would think this would be the way to go.

[CamB]

Originally posted by pete98m3
uh guys...


lol... hate to burst ur bubble but TWM already makes a kit for porsche 6's

btw no stock hondas ever ran individual throttles, the only company i know that's done it stock is bmw...

Porsche and Alpina BMWs both did it with MFI, but I don't recall anyone else in recent times either. Remember, with porsches (and prob other cars), when you start running throttle bodies you stop running a MAP sensor (no common induction chamber).

TWM do make suitable throttle bodies:

http://www.twminduction.com/ThrottleBody/ThrottleBody3003.html

Those are US$550 each, plus fuel rail (another $550 I think). Thats $1650ish, possibly plus manifold??

Compare to the Injection Perfection set at US$1200. I think that is too expensive too! But it is better.

[RLJ]

I was told the other day that you want to size the injector to a 65% duty cycle. That means the injector is giving you all you need and only working at 65% of volume.

Randy Jones
1971 911

[A Quiet Boom]

Originally posted by emcon5


I am still waiting for someone to convert to 6 Mikuni motorcycle carbs. 500cc bikes would be perfect.

Tom

I've seen this done on 2.3L Ford four cylinders, I think it was Esslinger Engineering that had a set. From what I remember it was wicked!

[Adam]

Originally posted by pete98m3:
btw no stock hondas ever ran individual throttles,

Actually, Honda did run individual throttles... way back in 1966. How do I know? My S600 Coupe project-car has them!

Four carbs, DOHC head... 9,500rpm limit! um... 56bhp...

Just as the factory built it

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by RLJ
I was told the other day that you want to size the injector to a 65% duty cycle. That means the injector is giving you all you need and only working at 65% of volume.

Randy Jones
1971 911

I'd always heard 80% duticycle.
-Chris

[Wrecked944]

"There are ways to do it and not spend a ton of money. I hope to transform my motor from PMO's to EFI for about $3000 US.

I want a system that uses parts like mapp sensors and injectors that I can buy at a NAPA store not from some special dealer."

Well, I don't know if you've seen the earlier thread on CIS to EFI conversions but...Ben Willis (aka SCWDP Minister of R & D) has pioneered the use of the MegaSquirt ECU in a 911. He used a carrera intake manifold, built the MegaSquirt computer himself and spent a total of $720. Here is a link to the thread documenting his success...

CIS to EFI Conversions?

And here is the MegaSquirt website...

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

I am currently following Ben's footsteps. A used carrera intake manifold is sitting on my workbench ($323 on eBay) and I have a set of 8 19lb Ford Motorsport injectors sitting next to it. I may also try a set of the 24lb injectors after reading CamB's thread on injector selection.

As for fabricating throttle bodies (sound of inhaling on crack pipe), what, exactly, are the components of a throttle body?