Sal,
I'm interested to know how these will run in non-stock config. I am finishing up a build with Web 20/21s, 3.4 Mortiz P+Cs, B&B headers and exhaust, etc. Injectors have been rebuilt by Mr. Injector. My plan was to get a custom SW chip, because up until now, that's just what you do. This seems like a very interesting route as well. How would you say the two compare? Thanks,
-Tom

Sal,

They are high imp, of course, but then I've tried lots of GM (multecs) high imp. injectors in the past but they never really performed as well as the stock injectors. However, I never matched the flow rates which I'm attempting now and would like to find out if it makes a difference compared to my past experiences. At the very least, I thank god the "DME injection driver circuit could care less and has no issue driving hi-imp injectors."

I really do appreciate your inputs and if I fail to achieve my goals, I will likely end up with my stock injectors as I have in the past and forego the improved spray pattern of these 21st century injectors.



Cheers,

Joe

As important as flow rates is injector timing. Some injectors start their flows slightly earlier or later than the stock injectors. This may be a slight change at low rpm's, but as rpm changes and things are moving faster, a poorly timed flow (early or late) could have increasingly significant consequences. Thus it is not just about "how much", but also when. Only the dme programming can compensate for that. Or at least that is how i understand it.

Mind you, Sal has found injectors from the era that do work just fine. They can be found by search. He has a thread on the topic with parts numbers. I think they were jaguar, or gm. I got a set from him... Although i opted to move to his upgraded dme and modern injectors. Much cheaper than new oem injectors, which do a good job, but are still 30 year old tech, and of course have "Porsche tax".

Thanks for the information. I will keep this in mind. I doubt the gentleman in the Jeep forum had as much support and information as I have had and yet am very impressed with the results he has achieved moving up to the new style injectors without the benefit of an updated ecm program.

Part Number lbs/hr cc /min grams /min PSI BARS lbs/hr Imp

3.2 Carrera
0-280-150-158 22.83 239.9 172.6 43.5 3.0 22.83 low

96 Neon
0-280-155-740 21.1 221.8 159.5 43.5 3.0 21.1 high


The flow may be a bit low but I'll see how it goes.


Cheers,
Joe

Those are flowing 7.6% less than stock. For a 200hp car... That is 15hp. That turns an afr of 13:1 to ~14:1. I suppose that as long as you can tune around them, and they have enough headroom for WOT, you might get away with it. I would be fearful of a lean condition at WOT, especially at high rpm, the worst of times. And that ignores things like response rate.

Here is the data Sal collected on "364" injectors. They are Bosch and were used in: BMW 2.3l, 6-3.2l, 6-3.4l, Plymouth 4-2.2l, 4-2.5l, Pontiac 1.8l, Porsche 2.5l.

Info at the bottom of this post: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/canada/881579-1984-911-3-4-sleeper-hotrod-end-beginning-part-2-a-3.html#post8821356

This seems like a pretty cool solution. I'm quite intrigued, especially with the results posted on this thread:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/851912-my-87-3-4-maf-project.html

I love how simple, yet nerdy it is. Sal's multi-year feat of decoding this chip down to it's machine code is extremely impressive, and that in itself makes me want to support his effort.

However, these are some questions I have about the system as I compare it to the SW solution:
How much of these gains are down to timing and ignition, and then how many are down to injectors, and then MAF intake? Sure it's hard to get hard numbers on this without a lot of dyno time, but sometimes you've gotta make a budget decision about $/hp. Still, this solution looks pretty sweet.
My other major concern is what happens if Sal isn't able to make chips in the future? Admittedly you could take the car back to stock, but this is an extremely proprietary solution. If 10 years go by, and Sal has moved on to other projects, but you've got a 3.2/3.4 in the garage with Ford injectors and a Sal chip and your DME blows up, then you're up the crick without a paddle. Which is a bit scary to me. On the other hand, that's his business model. He's put a ton of time into this and I can't think of a way to make it more "open source" and still compensate Sal for the great work he's done.

TMAUL,

I recently purchased Sal's MAF solution, and have installed it on my otherwise stock 3.2l (SSI/Dansk 2x2). I won't go into the details in this thread, as I'm still in the process of doing my final tuning, and I will post a separate thread once finalized later this week.

However, while it doesn't totally solve your issue, Sal does offer the conversion of your own DME for a nominal fee. That way you always have a backup readily available (that is what I'm doing). Obviously there's no issue with the chips themselves as he provides you with 2 spare chips, and he has you verify that you can burn new ones on your own.

Regards,
David

The only component that is custom is the DME, all other parts are off the shelf and you get a spare parts list and sources for getting parts. Some customers have purchased a 2nd DME from me to keep on the shelf. And most DME shops could repair my DME easily.

You can purchase:
Injectors $200
DME $350, or I convert your stock DME for $200
MAF Blade $100
For about $500 you can have a full set of spare parts

You can also diagnose any component issue just as you would on a stock setup.
And as you mentioned you can easily go back to stock.

You do ask fair questions, I tried to answer the concerns best I can.

Thanks Sal. I guess I left my last question unwritten. Like most people, my car is never quite done. Tweaking this, upgrading that. So I suppose the case that makes me most fearful is the case where in ten years, I decide to twin plug, up compression, turbo it, whatever, and need the car retuned, but there's no one around who can do it. Admittedly this is a risk we often have to take in the car world, but it makes me a bit nervous.

If you twin plug then certainly you'd need an entirely different tune. But for most mods like exhaust, cams, even increased displacement the MAF setup would work as is. You won't really need to re-tune much if any for basic changes, but I do encourage a dyno run after changes so we can compare torque curves and dial in ignition as needed.

Keep in mind that most folks who twin plug often increase displacement and once you do that you really need my MAF System.

Hi guys,
I started this thread to illustrate my experience with the chip and injector package that Sal offers. He modified my DME to 28-pin socket and supplied me with a stock 89 chip that runs my stock injectors very well. He returned my SW chip. He also sent me his custom chip for use only with the Ford injectors. I have saved the stock injectors and clips and along with the stock 89 chip, I think I could, or any mechanic could put the car back to stock in a couple of hours. I don't plan to do this, but it would be very easy to do.
The MAF system might be a little more involved, but I don't see a problem.
Good luck,
Dave

This is a good thing to think about.

My dad gave me his 2002Tii after about 40 years. I had the Kugelfischer injection rebuilt in California by Gus Pfister. He was one of the Original Bosch mechanical fuel injection employees, and bought up old Bosch testing machinery/tools when Bosch got out of supporting their old products in the 80's (Bosch bought Kugelfischer in the 70's). Gus is getting older. Who will rebuild it in 10 years? 20? What about when I try to give it to my son/daughter in another 40 years?

If Sal had a bad health plan and died tomorrow (tongue firmly in cheek), a few of us would be out of luck (as would Sal...) should we want further major re-tuning while still using the new injectors. Mind you, this cost Dave 800$ (for chip and injectors), compared to a well known stage 2 chip maker's 725$ (no injectors). If that guy died tomorrow, many of us would also be out of luck for future changes. Same for support on any aftermarket part... engine, suspension, or otherwise.

Lesson here: hold on to the stock parts if you are risk adverse.

For me, I am keeping my OEM system on the shelf, including an original DME. I am getting Sal's MAF system with his replacement proprietary DME (price was too good to pass... a rebuilt one from a well known source runs over 800$). His system is bolt in, with the largest work being the injector swap. Now that people mention it, maybe I will lift my DME off the floor (where water goes first), or put it in something that will better protect it from water. A DME "extension cable" (patent pending) would allow you to put it under the dash, or somewhere safer. There must be a market for that.

For now I plan to just enjoy the hell out of my car. As far as the future goes, I am far more worried about insurance companies eventually making it all but impossible to drive your own cars.

Really good points, Serpent. I'm leaning more toward this system every day. Sal, if you kick the bucket or decide to hang up your spurs, I hope you'll stick your code out on the internet so we can figure out what you did and how you did it.

Dave, any updates here? I am curious to learn how things are going a few weeks later.

Tmaull, did you pull the trigger on this set up?

Sal, I think you are on to something here. I really like the idea of going back to "optimal stock" configuration if something does quite work out correctly with the newer style injectors.

Hi guys,
My car is resting for the Winter months here in Chicagoland. I did go start it and let it come up to temp yesterday. After a month or more, it started instantly, and established a smooth (high) idle, which came down to a smooth 900 RPM. AFR's were 12.7 to start, then came down to 14.0-14.2. Engine sounded good, then I shut it off. I expect I might need some fine tuning but really very little, once I am driving it again regularly.
Happy New Year,
Dave

So after an additional 77 posts (95 minus the above one) and different injectors, modified DME
and chip, the engine runs essentially the same as it did with the return-to-stock DME!

That is true except for subtle details. To recap:
My SW chip (installed by PO) had low speed driveability issues. Sal did some minor work on my DME and installed a stock 89 chip. Driveability was much better, no parking lot jerk, but car would easily stall. I think I could have tweaked my idle speed and stopped right there as you suggest. I'd be in for $200.
I was convinced that since my engine is somewhat modified (cams, pistons, TB, intake, exhaust) I might benefit from a custom chip. Sal's system offers that chip, plus 6 new injectors, for less than a SW chip alone. At that point the purchase was discretionary, but I am impressed with improved idle smoothness and faster throttle response. These qualities are very subjective, but they feel correct to me.
Does anyone need this? Yes and no. Maybe if you have a few of the following: bad injectors (I didn't), a good AFM, desire a custom chip, and have DME problems.
As a package, it will not fit everyone. Some it will.
Thanks,
Dave

Someone told me once that every post in a build thread adds 0.13 hp above 4500rpm. We just gave him 10.01hp extra with those 77 posts!!!

Let the man dyno tune his chip/car in the spring. But i dont think we are expecting magic and dragons beyond the benefits of a 28pin performance chip. Although I am keen to see the low rpm performance. To me this is an exercise in properly adapting modern hi-impedance injectors for these cars... which makes sense if you need new ones, or even need a professional refurb of your originals, given the cost of both.

Hi Dave,
You seem to have strong feelings against both Sal's MAF system and the AFM chip/injector system in this thread. Your responses are beyond polite skepticism. I wonder if you have a reason for this. Are you in the business as a competitor? Have you had a bad experience with aftermarket chips/injectors? Are you of the opinion that 1984 technology was never improved upon in terms of performance or reliability? You seem like a very knowledgeable person, and I would really appreciate you constructive comments.
Happy New Year,
Dave

Hi Guys,
I have been experiencing an intermittent rough running 88 3.2. I have been working with Sal on diagnosing the issue for the last several weeks, Sal's knowledge and experience with the Motronic system on our cars is second to none. The intermittent issue I had been experiencing was a faulty fuel injector. I removed my existing performance chip that PO installed and replaced with Sal's new performance chip and matched injectors this weekend. My car has never ran better. Instant startup when cold and no more idle drop when coming to a stop. The improved drive ability of the car is unbelievable. I had options to send injectors out to be cleaned, maybe possible maybe not. The idea of upgrading to modern technology injectors and the increased performance and drive ability in my opinion was the only decision. Thanks Sal!