Rotor not aligning with notch at TDC

[RMG001]

1981sc idles but will not rev. Bought the car this way. Full history is under another post under my name with a heading related to CIS fuel pressures. Have sorted thru pressures and flows. Discovered the plunger was stuck on the FD. Car starts and will not take fuel without bogging. Tried adjusting mixture screw (it had been turned by the PO but a baseline was never recorded). Thought the distributor may not be advancing so removed the distributor, dissembled and soaked overnight per the well know article by Gunter on this forum.
Advance is moving freely after re-assembly. Found TDC with a compression tester with a balloon to ensure that it was TDC on the compression stroke. The Z mark is straight up at this position in the stroke. The distributor will not go back in the block at TDC with the cap pointing to the notch in the distributor rim. By the way, verified all plugs were connected to the correct position on the cap.
Engine will start but rough and sputtering with popping out the exhaust smells very rich. Turn the timing light to the timing marks and the 5deg advance notch is approximately 20 degrees retarded. can not turn the distributor clockwise in its adjustment slot to get the mark at the reference mark in the fan housing.
Do I just ignore the technical instruction that requires the rotor to align with the notch?
Also when reinstalling the vacuum advance drum Gunter suggests sucking on the advance hose to observe the arm advance the distributor. I could not get it to move by sucking on it, but it would hold sucking against my tongue. This could be a secondary issue.
Note in the photo that the rotor is aligned with the notch in the rim of the distributor and the distributor hold down stud is buried to the edge of the slot.

[tabasco]

Go to TDC. Pull the distributor, turn the rotor and insert it back one tooth further.
Due to the shape of the teeth (not straight) the rotor turns as it goes down, you need to take this into account.

[boyt911sc]

Pull the ignition distributor out and re-install the distributor aligning to the scribed mark and the stud in the middle of the slot for adjustment. The key is to have room for adjustment left or right to get the ignition timing at 5° BTDC. Sometimes you have to do it a few times to get the right alignment.

Tony

[T77911S]

no need to suck.
find a port on the throttle body that has vacuum at idle and connect it to the advance to see if it works. use timing t=light to verify.

or, buy a hand vacuum pump, comes in handy. they also come as a vacuum brake bleeder kit.

as said, you have to offset the rotor before the dist goes back in.

[RMG001]

Alright went at this with a little more feel and got the hold down stud in the middle of the adjustment slot and the rotor exactly lined up with the notch in the distributor rim. Piston #1 (drivers side rear most) at TDC verified by a balloon on the end of a compression test hose screwed into cylinder #1 spark plug threads. White mark on pulley is lined up with white mark on the fan housing. Red mark designating 5 degrees advance is clockwise of the TDC mark on the pulley by approximately 1/4" maybe a little less.
Start up car idles but kind of bubbling. Clip of the timing gun is attached to plug #1 and lined up correctly with the arrow facing the plug. Red power clip is attached to the positive side of the fuse bus at the drivers side rear of the motor compartment. Negative is attached to the ground bolt on the fan shroud where the plug wire shields terminate.
The timing light indicates approximately 20 to 25 degrees retarded.
The only way to get the timing to advance clockwise of the TDC mark (advanced) is to remove the distributor and reset clockwise almost 1/4 of a turn.
Makes no sense to me. Any one ever see anything like this?
Car will idle, but still not take fuel as well documented in other post. Car does seem to respond a little better when timing can be advanced.

[boyt911sc]

Take some pictures showing the distributor and the crank pulley with the inductive timing light on. You are probably a tooth off the right setting.

Tony

[RMG001]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Take some pictures showing the distributor and the crank pulley with the inductive timing light on. You are probably a tooth off the right setting.

Tony

OK I was wondering if the light would show up on the camera. I will go back at it this afternoon

[RMG001]

Here is a series of sketches showing a general representation of the issues we were seeing when attempting to time the car

[RMG001]

Another related question. How much movement should the rotor move if it is twisted against the ziggy springs while distributor is installed? Mine moves about 5/16"

[snbush67]

Back up a bit, make sure that all plug wires are connected in the right order, and make sure that you are using the # 1 wire when checking timing.


Edit: just noticed you have numbers on your wire and cap, so your probably good on that. Still can't hurt.

[pete3799]

Originally Posted by RMG001

Alright went at this with a little more feel and got the hold down stud in the middle of the adjustment slot and the rotor exactly lined up with the notch in the distributor rim. Piston #1 (drivers side rear most) at TDC verified by a balloon on the end of a compression test hose screwed into cylinder #1 spark plug threads. White mark on pulley is lined up with white mark on the fan housing. Red mark designating 5 degrees advance is clockwise of the TDC mark on the pulley by approximately 1/4" maybe a little less.
Start up car idles but kind of bubbling. Clip of the timing gun is attached to plug #1 and lined up correctly with the arrow facing the plug. Red power clip is attached to the positive side of the fuse bus at the drivers side rear of the motor compartment. Negative is attached to the ground bolt on the fan shroud where the plug wire shields terminate.
The timing light indicates approximately 20 to 25 degrees retarded.
The only way to get the timing to advance clockwise of the TDC mark (advanced) is to remove the distributor and reset clockwise almost 1/4 of a turn.
Makes no sense to me. Any one ever see anything like this?
Car will idle, but still not take fuel as well documented in other post. Car does seem to respond a little better when timing can be advanced.

Just to be sure you have your cyl #s correct
Dist. turns counter clockwise.

[RMG001]

Originally Posted by snbush67

Back up a bit, make sure that all plug wires are connected in the right order, and make sure that you are using the # 1 wire when checking timing.


Edit: just noticed you have numbers on your wire and cap, so your probably good on that. Still can't hurt.

I followed all of the wires back when I tested them for resistance, But it cant hurt to do it again.

I can get the car to idle so I am going to put the timing light clip on each wire to make sure all are getting power.

[snbush67]

I think that the distributor was previously set to cover up other issues. Now, you have a working fuel delivery system so it is flooding out. So it was probably on the right notch. I would put the distributor back to the original notch and then start the car with loosen the distributor nut so that you can move it a bit, as you rotate the distributor try to get it into the center and then adjust your enrichment.

You might have to turn up the idle and then lower the enrichment until your timed right and your plugs burn clean.

[snbush67]

In other words, adjust your distributor so that it is at the factory recommended setting, then adjust your fuel delivery so that the engine runs smoothly.

[RMG001]

Thanks Shane, do you know how much your rotor will turn in your distributor (how much advancement do you get.
Also shouldn't I be able to time the car, regardless of the way it is running rich or lean? My timing marks are not even close unless I move the rotor position approximately 15 degrees to clockwise.
Agree on the mixture screw adjustment. If I get the timing right then I will head to the mixture.
And to confirm nut stays snug so I can fine tune when car is running.
Thanks Rob

[timmy2]

Leading edge as the rotor turns (counterclockwise) of rotor should be at the notch with hold down bolt in the middle. (Just about to fire as it turns past the mark)

[snbush67]

For advancement you get about 12 degrees at the distributor, that equates to 24 at the crank. Yes, you should be able to time the car regardless if it is rich or lean, the issue becomes that your car dies, RPM will change based upon the placement of the spark. If your dumping to much fuel and it's not burning that will cause the symptoms you describe in your OP.

That sounds to me like someone cranked the fuel up and advanced your spark to make up for an air leak, or something similar.

The key is that now you have fixed your fuel issue so you should return your fuel settings and timing back to factory settings. Then scientifically fiddle with it til it runs right.

[snbush67]

Something is off in your picture.

If the rotor tip is pointed dead at the notch then the starfish feet should point at the poles. It seems your rotor might not be seated correctly.

[Bob Kontak]

This is my 81.

It is spot on factory as to timing

Note where the notch is on the distributor relative to the big fan shroud. Your car is my car.

Note where the lock down bolt/nut is. It's off to one side of the middle - although middle should get you close enough to dial it to where it should be.

Rotor tip placement is of little consequence if you don't have the base set.

Note, more than once have I read about guys having problems and they did not have the plug wires in the right place. 162435 CCW.

[RMG001]

Getting closer, we got the timing dialed in. Car will rev now although still not cleanly. Still seems really rich, backfiring out of the exhaust, but if we go an 1/8 lean it will not start. It revs pretty quickly at idle at times, but trying to hold high revs it surges over a 1500 rpm range. Feels close.