Considering a 77 911S Targa, input appreciated!

[ADDvanced]

EDIT: Put this first, now that I have more information:

Hey guys…. Looking for help on determining the value on this 911. I know the owner well, so there’s some leeway here, but he was thinking $6-7000. He was also assuming it was just the valve covers that were leaking… but in reality, it’s leaking from basically every mating surface. Since it needs basically a full engine rebuild, is it worth 6k? I mean, without any engine whatsoever, what would it be worth in today’s market?

1977 Porsche 911S
CHASSIS: No rust. Straight. Lots of door dings. Torn off rear swaybar mounts. Rear foam bumpers cracked. One ding in hood from slamming hood down on something too tall.
ENGINE: Supposedly a 2.9 liter conversion (no documentation), supposedly about 50k on it (no documentation). Starts fine. Runs fine. Creates TONS of smoke, from all the leaking oil. Smoke does NOT really come out the exhaust, but is the oil dripping from every mating surface. Leaks from valve covers, from case to cylinders, cylinders to head, all of it. Many of the heater hoses are disintegrating, need to be replaced.
EXHAUST: Shot. Heat exchangers are dead. Rusty, holes, covered with tin foil?! $500-1200). Muffler also dead, full of holes ($150?)
TRANSMISSION: Shifter bushings disintegrated, fell out. Seems like it works fine. Clutch has good engagement. $20 for new bushings
SUSPENSION: Shocks seem fine. Little sloppy. Needs new bushings ($?)
INTERIOR: Dash pad is good. Seams on seats are coming apart. Center dash vent broken. Door cards need to have vinyl reglued. Speedometer reads about 10-15 over what it’s actually doing. ?
WEATHERSTRIPPING: Exterior trim has shrunk around rear window about 2”. All weatherstripping around side windows and targa seal is shot. Targa Seals: Left Top: $148.50 Right Top: $151.75 Main Rear Targa Bar Seal: $220 Windshield Targa Seal: $131.25 rear window seals :$50ish= $700ish for new seals
PAINT: Dead. Burned through with a buffer in many places.
BRAKES: Work great. Rear wheels lock up under hard braking, front ones don’t. ?
WHEELS/TIRES: 15” fuchs, decent shape. Tires have good tread, but 20+ years old.
TARGA: Headliner disintegrating. Needs to be redone. Top looks nice, but starting to shrink, has upturned lip in front, near windshield. $?

I mean, on one hand, it’s a running driving 911. But when it smokes, A LOT. When you park, you create a decent sized smoke screen due to all the oil cooking all over the engine. When I think about all the things that need to be replaced to make it a nice driver, not even to make it a GREAT car… it adds up to about $5,000, without even beginning to fix the paint/dings.
What are your thoughts?


ORIGINAL:


Hey all. I've found myself looking for some advice, as an opportunity popped up that I wasn't expecting. Before I go into details, I'll give you my background so you know where I'm coming from.
Me: Product designer,31, mechanically inclined, I've been doing all my own automotive work since I was 16. I transitioned from musclecars to imports to german stuff, so I think my skill sets/knowledge is pretty well rounded. Here's a list of what I've had:
68 Dodge Charger, 383 magnum, Hurst 4spd, too many mods to list
78 Mercury Marquis Beater, 400, hilarious ghetto cruiser
97 Neon Coupe 5spd, lightly modded for autox, street racing (ha)
92 Subaru SVX, track suspension, stebro exhaust, great car!
89 Accord LX 5spd (went to college)
89 Prelude Si 4ws (more autox)
91 Civic LX (commuter, aero modded for 43mpg)

Now, I'm down to just two cars. A 95 Audi S6 Avant (just finished restoring it)


and a DD 2000 Golf GLS.


I also restored a 78 Sleekcraft Aristocrat, and even got featured on buildthreads, which was a pretty huge deal to me.


1978 Sleekcraft speedboat | Build Threads

Now... here's the thing. My dad's neighbor is like a second father to me, and as long as I've been around, he's had a 911 that I've lusted after. Recently, he decided to sell it, to clear out space in his garage.

Here are the details:

1977 911 Targa
118k miles
5spd
Black paint, someone was too aggressive with a buffing pad in some places so the paint is worn through to primer a little
Black interior, decent shape
Black Fuchs
118,000 miles
Engine was replaced at around 50k miles with a 2.9 liter (stroker 2.7????)
Runs, drives, no major mechanical issues except oil leak around heat exchanger area.

Now... after doing some preliminary research, I found out the 2.7 is the worst 911 engine ever, and since this is a targa it's also the most undesirable 911 ever. However... he's asking 7k obo for it. I think I could probably scoop it up for 6k, which, again, from my preliminary research, seems like a really good deal.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.... I'm not looking for another project at the moment, but since I literally grew up knowing about this exact car, I am kind of excited to think about owning it. I've also never had a convertible before, so a Targa would be pretty awesome IMHO.

[tonythetarga]

Hopefully you have some engine build notes or details/bills to show service history of the car. You certainly want to know what type of head studs were used in the rebuild. Look to see if the exhaust manifolds were updated from original and if it has the 11 blade cooling fan.
77 should be a galvanized body but the front a arm mounts on the pan will need to be examined for strength. The battery could leak in the trunk and corrode the LF a-arm mount on the chassis and lead to a difficult repair.
You should have a PPI done with someone who knows the aircooled 911's and check compression/leakdown numbers as well.
review this buyers guide and look for other pointers:
Pelican Parts: 911 FAQ Version 2.2

[kyle242gt]

Welcome -
price seems reasonable. But ask yourself if you want THIS 911 or A 911.

Targa guys love 'em, and at that price, as long as it's mechanically solid, you could get back out if you change your mind.

[jackb911]

If your budget allows, I believe that in the long run you would be happier with a '78-83 911SC.

The aluminum crankcase 3.0 is a far more robust engine. It is basically a 930 turbo engine without a turbocharger. The crankcase and cooling fan shroud even carry 930 part numbers.

Unless it has been updated, the 2.7 is notorious for pulling head studs out of the crankcase. The '77 911S in particular is not very popular among Porschephiles due to the thermal reactor exhaust system. They tend to run very hot.

The 3.0 (and 3.2) have head stud breakage issues but that is a less expensive fix than repairing a messed up mag case 2.7.

Also understand that these cars are 30+ years old and things WILL break and wear out. Old Porsches, especially inexpensive ones to buy, generally are not inexpensive cars to own.

[ADDvanced]

Yeah, I realize the SC is a better car in power, longevity, resale... etc...

but if it's a rust free 77 with a rebuilt engine, isn't it worth over 10?

I grew up around this particular car.... so to scoop it up for 6ish seems like a deal even if it is the worst 911 ever.

[timmy2]

If you are good with the knowledge you have and the condition of the car, and you believe it is a fair price, then go for it.
Oh, btw, Targas Rule!

[ADDvanced]

Well... I'm open to suggestion. What other 911s have you seen for sale in the 6-7k price range that run/drive?

[quattrorunner]

If it were me, I'd snatch it up for 6k, at least if you have space to work on it and it sounds like you do. It will be fun to show your neighbor the improvements over time as well. 6K is good if it has no rust and you can fix stuff youself. Targas are fun, I own a 77 as well albeit not stock and love it. I liked it before the engine swap too.
Sounds like a new member to me.

[kyle242gt]

Originally Posted by cash68

Well... I'm open to suggestion. What other 911s have you seen for sale in the 6-7k price range that run/drive?

If that's the car that speaks to you, rock on! The only 911's you'll find in that range will also be 2.7L cars, so go with the known quantity.

Just be sure you like the car as-is and aren't planning to spend a lot of time throwing money at it. If so, you'll be happier with a more expensive starting point.

[silverc4s]

There is a saying in the world of old 911s that goes something like, "They are all $20,000 cars." it may be a bit out of date, as prices and repair / restore costs have been rising a lot recently.
Keep in mind, the engine or transaxle rebuild for this $7000 911 is gonna be roughly the same as those for a $90,000 early S. You can make $10,000 disappear in hard parts very quickly.
I would also say that the desirability of all Targas has been rising as the early soft windows have rekindled interest in this unique design.
The fact that you have a good long knowledge of this car ( was the neighbor the original owner? How much is known prior to his ownership?) is a real positive considering the age of the car. You could spend a ton of time looking at other 911s without ever being as knowledgeable about another one.
Good luck, enjoy the chase. We would like to see pictures, and many here can provide analysis.

Ps. I bought a 1967 Formula S 383 barracuda off the showroom floor in 67. Loved that car...

[rwest]

Cash68,

The mid-year cars get a bad rap because of a few issues. You know what you're doing, know the history of the car and can get it for a great price. I say do it.

Good Luck,
Rutager

[Trackrash]

A 2.9 would be a big bore. I would want to see some documentation on the motor's rebuild. Not sure about the availability of 2.9 cylinders or there durability.

[timmy2]

Find out the engine type number and see what it really is through records the owner may have.

[matt gineo]

Even though I've received tons of very valuable information on this forum, I'm glad I didn't listen to all the horror stories regarding the 76 CIS 2.7 or I never would have purchased mine. I think I broke every rule imaginable. I even did my own PPI. The Pelican Website and PCA even rag on the terrible 76 2.7 and do their best to scare away potential buyers. PCA even says this about the 76 "For the most part, they aren't collectible. They also aren't cars to restore, although you can always improve them bit-by-bit. They aren't cars that will grow dramatically in value anytime soon and won't tend to draw a crowd of Porsche folks to admire. But none of that makes them any less fun". I guess none of the Porsche folks will want to talk to me or admire my car?

Pelican Sez the following:It's a tragic story. Porsche increased the displacement of the 2.4 without providing enough cooling and, to add insult to injury,
the US models had thermal reactors (except for 1974) that got REALLY hot. The result is, among other things, head studs that pulled out of the crank case (due to thermal expansion of the cylinders) and destroyed valve trains. All of this resulted in an average engine life of about 50,000 miles (your mileage may vary --
HA! I was *waiting* to use that line).

1. All 2.7's will have broken head bolts and will require millions to repair. (all mine were fine)
2. Thermal Reactors will fry your engine. (My engine was not fried and I simply removed mine)
3. All 76's have terrible, unstoppable oil leaks. (I replaced my valve cover gaskets, No leaks anywhere)
4. Do not buy the first 5 cars you look at. (I bought the first one I looked at)
5. All 2.7's have warped valve covers (mine were fine)
6. The engine will be screwed because of the 5 blade fan. (I simply bought a used 11 blade fan for $250 and slapped it on)
7. CIS is a piece of crap and will never run right (I cleaned the fuel tank, fuel lines, replaced injectors, fuel filter, rebuilt the WUR, Rebuilt FD, and rebuilt Fuel Pump) She starts and runs like a dream after sitting for 15+ years)
8. I didn't have the luxury of starting and running the engine before I bought it. It had been sitting in a garage for 15+ years and the entire fuel system was a gunked up mess because the fuel was never drained.
9. Be prepared to spend a fortune on the brakes, engine etc. if the car has been sitting more than 10 minutes. (My brakes, suspension, electrical system, gearbox, body, trim, chassis etc. were in almost perfect condition)
11. Don't buy a Targa, the top will leak, rattle and blow out your eardrums at speeds exceeding 15mph. (My top is perfect)
12. Your car will be a rusted out mess if it's not stored in a climate controlled, air conditioned, dehumidified, heated garage. (not one speck of rust anywhere on mine)
13. Your compression will be screwed if the car has been sitting around for an extended period of time. (my numbers turned out just fine)

And I got her for the grand total of $7,500!!

To make a long story short don't believe everything you read. Take your time, do some research and go with your gut as well as your brain.

Again, I have gained lots of valuable information on this forum and I've saved countless hours of my time and tons of MY $$$ by reading the great posts found here! Thank you.

And last but certainly not least, DO NOT EVER SEND YOUR ENGINE TO MOTORMEISTER!!

[bob deluke]

A big +1 to what Matt said. I did exactly the same as Matt, first porsche I looked at, I bought. Purchased for $3500.00, have about $4K into it. 2.7L motor, 5 blade fan,(changed out to 11 blade), thermal reactors gone, upgraded chain tensioners installed. All in all, a decent running CIS car with 107K on odometer. Did all the work myself except for paint and upholstery. A fun project. Don't believe all the horror stories you hear about Targas and 2.7 motors. You appear to have the technical knowledge to do the work, and the price is right, so go for it. I am very happy with my car. By the way Matt, is your color Saharra gold metallic? Looks just like mine..

[matt gineo]

Originally Posted by bob deluke

A big +1 to what Matt said. I did exactly the same as Matt, first porsche I looked at, I bought. Purchased for $3500.00, have about $4K into it. 2.7L motor, 5 blade fan,(changed out to 11 blade), thermal reactors gone, upgraded chain tensioners installed. All in all, a decent running CIS car with 107K on odometer. Did all the work myself except for paint and upholstery. A fun project. Don't believe all the horror stories you hear about Targas and 2.7 motors. You appear to have the technical knowledge to do the work, and the price is right, so go for it. I am very happy with my car. By the way Matt, is your color Saharra gold metallic? Looks just like mine..

Hi Bob, my color is Sienna Metallic /Diamond Sahara # 436-9-3 . I just upgraded to Carrera tensioners. Oil temp stays right around 200-210 and she goes like a bat out of hell!

[Lukesportsman]

Huh..........worst 911 ever. Well that still puts it above a many of cars still ever built

Have you looked at prices of XKE's? Mine could eat $6k in a bad moment. A 308 will eat that in one major service with belt change. Point, where can you get a car of this stature for such little money? And its the car that speaks to you! bonus equity

[Lukesportsman]

2.7 CIS with thermo reactors = worst engine ever built

2.7 MFI RS = one of sweetest well rounded engines ever built

I know they are different and for what reasons, but still find it funny and it shows the potential of a 7r case and the correct fixes.

[fanaudical]

Nice S6!

I say go for the 911 (but get all the info you can from the owner and evaluate it first).

Where are you located? I'm sure you have other local Pelicans willing to lend a hand with an in-person review of the car...

[CountD]

Originally Posted by matt gineo

Even though I've received tons of very valuable information on this forum, I'm glad I didn't listen to all the horror stories regarding the 76 CIS 2.7 or I never would have purchased mine. I think I broke every rule imaginable. I even did my own PPI. The Pelican Website and PCA even rag on the terrible 76 2.7 and do their best to scare away potential buyers. PCA even says this about the 76 "For the most part, they aren't collectible. They also aren't cars to restore, although you can always improve them bit-by-bit. They aren't cars that will grow dramatically in value anytime soon and won't tend to draw a crowd of Porsche folks to admire. But none of that makes them any less fun". I guess none of the Porsche folks will want to talk to me or admire my car?

Pelican Sez the following:It's a tragic story. Porsche increased the displacement of the 2.4 without providing enough cooling and, to add insult to injury,
the US models had thermal reactors (except for 1974) that got REALLY hot. The result is, among other things, head studs that pulled out of the crank case (due to thermal expansion of the cylinders) and destroyed valve trains. All of this resulted in an average engine life of about 50,000 miles (your mileage may vary --
HA! I was *waiting* to use that line).

1. All 2.7's will have broken head bolts and will require millions to repair. (all mine were fine)
2. Thermal Reactors will fry your engine. (My engine was not fried and I simply removed mine)
3. All 76's have terrible, unstoppable oil leaks. (I replaced my valve cover gaskets, No leaks anywhere)
4. Do not buy the first 5 cars you look at. (I bought the first one I looked at)
5. All 2.7's have warped valve covers (mine were fine)
6. The engine will be screwed because of the 5 blade fan. (I simply bought a used 11 blade fan for $250 and slapped it on)
7. CIS is a piece of crap and will never run right (I cleaned the fuel tank, fuel lines, replaced injectors, fuel filter, rebuilt the WUR, Rebuilt FD, and rebuilt Fuel Pump) She starts and runs like a dream after sitting for 15+ years)
8. I didn't have the luxury of starting and running the engine before I bought it. It had been sitting in a garage for 15+ years and the entire fuel system was a gunked up mess because the fuel was never drained.
9. Be prepared to spend a fortune on the brakes, engine etc. if the car has been sitting more than 10 minutes. (My brakes, suspension, electrical system, gearbox, body, trim, chassis etc. were in almost perfect condition)
11. Don't buy a Targa, the top will leak, rattle and blow out your eardrums at speeds exceeding 15mph. (My top is perfect)
12. Your car will be a rusted out mess if it's not stored in a climate controlled, air conditioned, dehumidified, heated garage. (not one speck of rust anywhere on mine)
13. Your compression will be screwed if the car has been sitting around for an extended period of time. (my numbers turned out just fine)

And I got her for the grand total of $7,500!!

To make a long story short don't believe everything you read. Take your time, do some research and go with your gut as well as your brain.

Again, I have gained lots of valuable information on this forum and I've saved countless hours of my time and tons of MY $$$ by reading the great posts found here! Thank you.

Right on, Matt. My story pretty much reads the same way. I would buy it for $6k in a heartbeat. You can't find a car like that in Southern California for that price. That is a bargain. Get it, drive it, and learn.