Wheel well air temps

Is obvious that air behind rear wheel is higher temp than air ahead. What’s unknown is what delta is between these two areas. Am looking into that here…

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Ambient = 65 dF. Car’s been town-driven 30 minutes… and rear wheel is removed... and engine continues to idle while thermos are positioned and pics below are taken…


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Rear thermos sits at approximate center of rear well (behind wheel. It’s hung on 3-wire cable that will connect to brushless turbine.)


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Rear temp = 205 dF.


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Front thermo is positioned where air bucket’s intake is (when duct is installed.)


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82 dF.

Delta = aprox. 120 dF under conditions given.

Variables are respected… when driving, air surly moves about in well differently at different car speeds. Depending on where thermos are positioned… that makes a difference in readings (I positioned thermos for fair reckoning.) No wheel…car jacked up… that likely makes a difference. Given infinite variables affecting wheel well air temps, these measures were taken only to gain some reference to what’s going on temp-wise in this space.



Bucket install

Clearance between “naked” bucket and fender is a few 1/16”s. With insulation and retaining trim added to bucket’s top... thought it would no longer fit. It doesn’t. Won’t go high enough in well now to install. Going to Dremel material off top azz end and cut rubber fenders mounts in half. (Bucket sits on rubber fender mounts front and rear.) 1/4” total drop… should work.



Bypass switch

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Top is bypass switch for brushless turbine. (Fuel pump kill* is bottom switch.) Paddles left = OFF. I soldered wires to bypass and kept heat on switch terminal(s) too long---not a good idea with this type switch. Inside switch, slot holding actuation pin deformed from heat rendering switch nogood. (This type switch can be opened easily. Used Pegatanke to recreate pin’s slot. Switch is back in business.)


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Paddle switch ref.


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Pic before switch install. There’s a rectangular slot in gauge panel. Covering on panel appears stock suggesting this slot also being from factory. I don’t recall ever seeing anything in a 911 gauge panel at this position… anyone?


* Fuel pump kill switch is alternative to turning ignition OFF to kill motor. In case throttle sticks---which I’ve experienced and am not too fond of---rather than turn ignition key and risk locking steering wheel at a possibly inopportune moment… fuel pump kill is option. CAUTION: Takes a few moments for fuel pressure to drop enough to kill motor. Surly there’s a "spark kill" that would be better / instant. I also kill pump when parking long-term (to potentially squelch favorite car’s unwelcomed total bye-bye.

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Uncle Karl,

I'll trade you those 80-220F temps up here today, and ship you some 15F with snow.

Not to rain on the parade, we enjoy your efforts and work.

We have been marketing our Rear Kuehl Fender Condenser sytems for over
17 years, getting close the 1000 th unit soon.

When we first explored and tested the concept years back we were aware of heat (radiant and convection primarily, conducted is little) in the fender area, noticeably in the rear section because of the pocket. To get around this issue we designed our condenser to be mounted higher in the well to reduce the radiant. To reduce the convection we designed our system to pull air from the outside of the fender and direct it inward; air baffles on the assembly reduce back drafts, hence fender air temps don't seriously affect the condenser as we are pulling in fresh cool air and directing it inward. As you know the Kuehl system works; as it did with your previous Kuehl Condenser system prior to your compressor's hiccups and your evaporator's green house event.

I understand your project has been focused on pulling air from the forward section of the pocket, and as your tests showed the rearward section is hotter than the forward when the vehicle is sitting. However, only so with out drafts. Once the vehicle is moving the rear section see's cooler air.

What you test did not reflect, for the day you made observations, was a rise in the forward pocket when there is any air movement coming from behind the vehicle toward the forward end, such as on a windy day. We noted this condition occurring when we were doing our "WEST TEST" a few years ago to verify if the Wild Willy Radiant Heat Hypothesis held true for radiant heat, however we concluded the value or angle of radiant heat from the catalytic converter was so narrow it had little effect on the condenser performance.

In 1989 the 964 condenser function moved to the LH front fender. It too can see warm heat pushed from rear drafts and wind from the exhaust and engine when the 964/993 is standing still, as well a tad more black top heat as opposed to a rear fender unit alike the Kuehl or your current project.

Karl, how about getting some refrigerant in system and get it on the road, you can play with the electronics on a rainy day, or snowy if the weather conditions continue.

Best to you,

Griff

This project in no way doubts your engineering and the quality of products you represent and the quality you yourself represent. 8 YEARS AFTER I bought your system... you were still supporting me (when other sellers would have told me to get lost!) Admirable on your part beyond belief---indelible in my memory. AND... here on PPF, you are THE AC go-to master. Any time we have any AC question... you're here. And there's NO BS with you.

This bucket exploration is because... I don't golf. Right or wrong, I've concluded this project being worthwhile doing---if only to explore ideas, materials, and products.

Were I to choose an intelligent AC rear fender system that works, it's your rear fender set up without hesitation. More, were I to engineer and intelligent system that works, I'd arrive at your system. Nutshelled: less is more.

...This air bucket program... it's OFF THE CHAIN complicated. Intentionally so. Never would I recommend this being the way to go (unless one wanted to explore things as I do.)

Will air bucket system work? Sure (says optimist. Am looking forward to see how long.) Should things lack durability as they might, I'll be returning to my Kuehl fender set up. Your offer stands into foreverness I'm sure.

I'm know what you are working on is gonna do something.

You could strap on one of these up front, new for 2018.






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Excellent Workmanship Karl

That's Nice Charley

Wow!
What a beautiful condenser. Any plans for improve condenser blower?Thanks,
Dave

Does that negate the need for a rear condenser?

Looking at CG's new condenser, am thinking...

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Bill Verberg's car.

My front PFC in an RSR Retro Look that is water cooled Using Only 2 FRONT AND REAR PFC's
Conversion Retro Look Body Parts made be a chap in California
He has several 911 body Kits available, he makes them

You can see the fan's inside the center air=Inlet


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Karl KEEP working on your blower project,

If you want a front PFC I think I have an extra one I can give you that doesn't have hose fitting on it yet

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That's impressive front end alltogether. (Would leave it like this photo---no fans.)

Thanks for PFC offer Kelo. Am going to get to front bumper like Bill's but not now. Prefer to get condenser when bumper time comes. (Condo storage is in short supply.)

Making bucket fit

Naked, bucket fit nicely. Now, trim added to secure mesh cage… that’s just enough added material to prevent unit from going where it once did. Moving bucket forward is not an option as condenser’s outlet port would then suffer an access issue. Lack of fondness for mesh-cage config = no-brainer to remove it.

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With exception of insulation covering bucket, bucket’s now back to dimensions that fit into well. To guard condenser’s exhaust side, am making deflector to shield the 3-4 degrees of exhaust side that’s open-faced to wheel.

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Using material left over from intake filter. (Credit to Glen for filter-thinking.)


Bucket install

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With extra trim gone, bucket now fits as it should. Horizontal brace sets in/out tilt of bucket and so bucket’s outside fender clearance. Where bucket’s rear-end once had clearance to rear light casing… bucket’s now touching casing (due to insulation. Will check that area downstream to see how insul holds up. Might be better to place rubber where insulation contacts light casing.)


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Is possible to bend ports slightly by putting box wrench over port nut… heat tubing slightly… then moving port with wrench. Is for “fine adjustment.” Mesh-cage gone = good---exhaust side cavity is less obstructed.


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Looking towards front of car from behind rear wheel… checking clearance between tire and inlet hose as inlet hose turns towards condenser.


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Another perspective on inlet hose (still looking forward but at a slightly up angle.) Metal-to-chassis contact = unappealing. Will sort this later.


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Can see here why moving bucket forward does not work to solve fitment challenge---outlet port is just behind diagonal fender brace. (15” long condenser just fits. 14" would have made fitment much easier---this is '80 911.)

Bucket will ride for few hours of drive time. I’ll pull it out Thursday or Friday to see if there’s anything unexpected. I found that even in simple chit, unexpected (and unwanted) happens. Better to find out what’s wrong---if there is anything---before rest of hardware is installed.

Yes there is a lot going on there, (btw the owner races this 911 sometimes)

Your idea was tried first, no fans driving test and rejected!

You would think just having the PFC in the air-stream like that would be enough PFC heat exchange and it was, but you NEED the fans/blowers very-much for stop and go driving and extended idleing!!!

If you decide to get a front body kit like this make sure there is enough room and body clearance for both the PFC and FANS or you will be sorry. I had to work with the Calif. body designer on this custom A/C install

Thanks for headsup on clearance. Looking at Bill's bump, believe there's plenty of space (for all sorts of ideas to take shape.)


....rear wiper switch is good possibility.

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Model for tube to join condenser’s bottom outlet to hose. (“Male end” as labled should be threaded fitting and not fitting shown.)


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Ways back I got low temp overlapping aluminum welded tube joints that appeared solidly joined---"appeared." Am not willing to prove my newb low temp welding skills good or bad now. Had friend (who knows what he’s doing) weld this up---thanks Luis. Pipe insulation on tube is test fit of 5/8” ID cut down (length wise) to fit 3/8” OD. Is for cushioning and insulation (this being very close to exhaust.)


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3/8” tube can be bent slightly---without heat---and hose can be moved forward & aft to fine tune position of tube. Test fit here is to see how much hose needs to move forward in car... and how to deal with it. Space under tub above rear axle works to “store” small bow in hose. Zip tie joins hose to other AC hose and electrical cable to keep bow from rubbing on tub seam above it.


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Should have used correct end-caps while these hoses sat here unconnected to condenser---tin foil & tape were poor substitutes. Am cleaning up error of my ways with spiky-worm and flushing (last few inches of hoses) with alcohol.


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Finished connections made = fittings cleaned, condenser ports visually inspected (with mirror), new lubed o-rings installed, ala Uncle Charlie… nuts are “not too fookin tight---let o-rings do their job.”


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Rubber adapter between brushless and bucket was cut slightly to allow adapter to sit further onto bucket’s intake.


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Intake with over-the-wheel duct installs as unit. Once intake is positioned, friction-fit of stack in crevice doesn’t allow up-down repositioning. Stack must be tilted into correct position. Tilt-in position is being checked here. Optimal position is when quik-release clamp centers between two on board clamps.

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Intake stack in place. If any lower, rocker panel begins to squash inlet. Can see inlet is slightly deformed. Is result of testing---is very thin material (surrounding intake filter. Takes very little pressure to bend this material. Thanks to Glen for filter thinking.) Black part with stainless mesh = secondary intake (should main intake get clogged.) Works with bi-fold doors tensioned-closed with 180 d springs. Elbow prevents water from splashing directly onto doors. Down angle is drainage for whatever water does enter intake.


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Air valve in making... doors. Now thinking would have been smart to put anti-seize on post & hinges. (Oxidation is likely going to have its way in there.) Adding this to list of to-do refinements. Thanks to Coastr for air-valve thinking.


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Soft insulation (on duct) in wheel well environment is bound for destruction. That in mind, rubber skin is being tested as insul-preservative. Rubber has self-adhesive on back but not using it yet. If skin doesn’t hold up, would be very difficult to remove remainder given adhesive’s strength. For time being, have secured skin with zip ties (that also secure duct to car.) Zips are run behind hard tube that channels rear lid release cable. That channel floats away from car most of its passage through the fender well area. If skin is durable, will peel & stick it to duct. Thanks to Raff / "RN" for CEET duct thinking.


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Looking at insulation-wrap on connector tube here... realize this too will be debris-eaten (whatever is facing tire and beyond protection of fender brace.) Thin sheet aluminum can wrap around insul and fender brace then stainless screw clamps in place of zips.


Turbine’s first driven sound test

Windows open… slight fan noise is audible at lower RPM.
Windows closed… nothing.

Turbine’s speed can be increased.

.

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Valve is coming out to antiseize hinge-contacts and hinge-post. Post can only come out downwards when intake stack is assembled. Rod of same diameter is used to access post. For mental game: Think about how hinged valve doors with springs re-install (with intake stack remaining in car and assembled. Reason post can only go out and in from below is duct arches over valve area.)


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Tried pulling low temp welded hinges off door panels by hand----three hinges came off easily. Two were difficult. Three were solidly connected… I melted those off. Rather than repeat low temp aluminum weld, went with epoxy. Is much easier union to create and bond at each hinge is solid---cannot pull these hinges off by hand. Believe these parts could be successfully low temp welded (but more experience than I have is needed. With Muggy Weld’s Super Alloy 1 product (350 dF), heat needs to stay away from fluid-flux. Seems once flux is scorched… is not an effective bond. When all's done correctly, bond is strong.)


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Antiseize heading to parts.


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Tape is needed to position doors then pull them against seat so post can be inserted. (Pretensioning keeps valve closed when installed.)


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Tape is part of solution needed to re-install valve. Multiple short post segments is rest of solution. These segments install temporarily and are pushed out of top as post is inserted below. Measure of each short segment is slightly less than “escape space” above valve. (Is good to install these short segments when removing valve---keeps springs & barrel from falling into filter well when hinge post is removed.)


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Post being inserted from below. Short segment escaping above.


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With antizeize (on everything that moves) and stronger hinging, air-valve should need no further refinement.


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When installing duct above wheel---with insulation added and now floating on duct---was evident that duct was not jamming up and into crevice between fender and body as far as it did when naked. I left install as is thinking if there was a rub… tire would not tear system apart. Way CEET duct is made, it’s very spongy-strong---has excellent shape retention. In order to form CEET to a shape other than round… target shape needs to be dramatically exaggerated well beyond target shape wanted. I did squash duct for crevice-fit but not enough (to compensate for installing with floating insulation---the float being the problem.) Force necessary to adjust CEET duct to sit higher up in crevice… is good idea to remove it from fender to make this adjustment.

Imagine if you built a whole car with this much research and testing :)