Replacement CDI Unit

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by mysocal911

Additional images of an inductive discharge ignition spark signal on a 911 3.2,and later Porsches.

Do you not have the balls to state you have a Bosch CDI box repair shop, Loren?

Jesus H Christ. Come clean.

Years and years of the same slack jawed, limp wrist, BS.

[mysocal911]

Since the title of the thread is; "Replacement CDI Unit", some may be unaware that Pelican Parts
provides a rebuilding service:

Pelican Parts - European Automotive Parts and Accessories - Porsche • BMW • Mercedes • Volkswagen • Audi • Saab • Volvo • MINI



Given the cost of most of the replacement CDI units and their marginal benefit as noted,
the Pelican Parts Bosch CDI service seems very reasonable, right?

[timmy2]

Thought this thread was about comments on the PK unit and other replacements for the permatune unit the OP mentioned. Not repairing Bosch units he never had.

[tobluforu]

Who do they shop out to for the repairs, hmmmmmmmm, Loren maybe?

[billh1963]

Another option is the Lakeland unit: https://www.lakeserv.net/porsche/index.html

I am running one on my '76 911 and no problems so far.

I think it's great that we have so many options. Hopefully, everyone gets adequate business to keep making their units so we continue to have options based on originality (rebuilt stock units), price, and performance.

[pmax]

Can we keep the fascinating tech discussion going and not dwell on the "business" issues ?

Thank you all.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by pmax

Can we keep the fascinating tech discussion going and not dwell on the "business" issues ?

Thank you all.

Last one. Promise.

Originally Posted by tobluforu

Who do they shop out to for the repairs, hmmmmmmmm, Loren maybe?

Good for Loren. I hope they do.

The silence is just kind of creepy.

[Jonny H]

Originally Posted by mysocal911

..their marginal benefit as noted..

Noted by whom, you? All of our customers 'note' an improved drive. Looking back over this thread, you 'reviewed' our product by looking at a single waveform and drawing your own conclusions.

Have you ever seen one of our units, let alone driven a car with one fitted?

As an aside, hijacking your own thread ain't cool.

[Jonny H]

Originally Posted by pmax

Can we keep the fascinating tech discussion going and not dwell on the "business" issues ?

Thank you all.

Sadly, the technical content cannot be objective or impartial unless the authors are honest about who they are and what their stake is:

Jonny Hart. Makes and sells CDI+ replacements.
Fred Winterburn. Makes and sells the 'Winterburn CDI'.
Dave. ?????

[rwest]

Originally Posted by mysocal911

Since the title of the thread is; "Replacement CDI Unit", some may be unaware that Pelican Parts
provides a rebuilding service:

Pelican Parts - European Automotive Parts and Accessories - Porsche • BMW • Mercedes • Volkswagen • Audi • Saab • Volvo • MINI



Given the cost of most of the replacement CDI units and their marginal benefit as noted,
the Pelican Parts Bosch CDI service seems very reasonable, right?

Some also might be unaware that Pelican also sells the CDI+ and also MSD ignition products.

[Neil Harvey]

Originally Posted by Neil Harvey

As a user of CDI ignition systems for these Porsche engines, in all the years we have been in business building engines, we have never found a Bosch CDI or any aftermarket repaired or modified unit to perform anywhere close to the M&W and now the Classic unit.

As a engine provider we rely upon external systems like Ignition CDI unit components to perform. An engine is useless without these critical components doing the job we expect them to do. Our reputation is at stake and we place this squarely in the hands of companies that provide these critical components. This is why we are careful of what we use and sell.

We have tested just about every CDI on the market over the years and have never had one of the repaired or modified Bosch units out perform or come close to the M&W unit and now the Classic unit.

This what I have stated in the past.

Our need for good ignition as an engine supplier is the same as the DIY owner. We may have some electronic knowledge over some but in the end what happens in the car, on the road is what we look for.

We have tested both units we offer on the dyno and in the car environment. Both have proved reliable and both have made more torque over the Bosch unit. The M&W unit makes the most but this unit is not built as a direct Porsche replacement, and produces a higher energy output. The CDI+ unit is designed to replace the Bosch unit as a direct replacement with the added features of RPM limit and ignition lead control, both features adjustable. Both CDI units have their strengths and place.

If we could use an Inductive system on these 2V large combustion chamber engines and get the same performance we would. It's less cost in a single channel system and when making the system multi coil, becomes way less money and fairly simple to fit. Unfortunately, our engine dyno tests and in car testing has not found one Inductive system to out perform CDI.

We have tested some of the repaired Bosch CDI units against the M&W CDI and none have being able to match the M&W. Some of the repaired units have even failed. We have not bothered to test some of the other aftermarket CDI units as these do not meet our level of quality.

We can plug up this thread with lots of scope images and a whole lot of "pointy headed jargon", but what happens in the car is what is important, for us.

[RDM]

Originally Posted by Neil Harvey

This what I have stated in the past.

Our need for good ignition as an engine supplier is the same as the DIY owner. We may have some electronic knowledge over some but in the end what happens in the car, on the road is what we look for.

We have tested both units we offer on the dyno and in the car environment. Both have proved reliable and both have made more torque over the Bosch unit. The M&W unit makes the most but this unit is not built as a direct Porsche replacement, and produces a higher energy output. The CDI+ unit is designed to replace the Bosch unit as a direct replacement with the added features of RPM limit and ignition lead control, both features adjustable. Both CDI units have their strengths and place.

If we could use an Inductive system on these 2V large combustion chamber engines and get the same performance we would. It's less cost in a single channel system and when making the system multi coil, becomes way less money and fairly simple to fit. Unfortunately, our engine dyno tests and in car testing has not found one Inductive system to out perform CDI.

We have tested some of the repaired Bosch CDI units against the M&W CDI and none have being able to match the M&W. Some of the repaired units have even failed. We have not bothered to test some of the other aftermarket CDI units as these do not meet our level of quality.

We can plug up this thread with lots of scope images and a whole lot of "pointy headed jargon", but what happens in the car is what is important, for us.

Excellent infornation. Thank you.

As for the financial end of it, you won't benefit from sharing this information from me because I'm not in a position to have you build me a car or an engine. I certainly benefit, though, as I have more expert knowledge to consider as I decide what I will do next with my car.

Again, thanks.

[Fred Winterburn]

There are so many variations in ignition designs and particularly between CDI designs, that one can't make assumptions without testing. I recently tested a 6V Permatune built in the 1990s and was aghast at how poorly it performed on my test rig. Very short, duration spark, no voltage control, and unable to muster a decent spark below 5.5 volts. Yet, the owner that sent it for testing was happy with its performance on his car. In my opinion it wasn't worth putting on a car because it couldn't pass a few basic tests. Potted too, and therefore unrepairable.
By the way, I used to live in Ramstein (I see that is your location) when I was a kid and my father was based there as part of the Canadian contingent. Great memories. Lots of US servicemen were buying 911s at the time and we kids called them 'tin can sports cars' and considered them little better than VWs. I've changed my opinion since then! Fred

Originally Posted by RDM

Excellent infornation. Thank you.

As for the financial end of it, you won't benefit from sharing this information from me because I'm not in a position to have you build me a car or an engine. I certainly benefit, though, as I have more expert knowledge to consider as I decide what I will do next with my car.

Again, thanks.

[Raceboy]

Originally Posted by RDM

Excellent infornation. Thank you.

As for the financial end of it, you won't benefit from sharing this information from me because I'm not in a position to have you build me a car or an engine. I certainly benefit, though, as I have more expert knowledge to consider as I decide what I will do next with my car.

Again, thanks.

Excellent information? What exactly? Just telling that product x is better because we say it is better? I still have not seen any valid proof why and how it is better.
I have no dog in thos race but tbh mysocal911 has provided real and tangible data on spark properties (and to be fair, Fred has also, with valid arguments) but saying just "we as engine builder say that it is good" is just nothing but hot air.

I am willing to give my twin plug ditsributor to the guy who succeeds to prove that I get real life more torque and power when switching from VEMS controlled inductive ignition (with proper coils of course) to CDI ignition.

[m42racer]

You would be hard to find anyone on this forum with as much engine experience at the highest level, than Neil. I think with his experience and knowledge , he can tell a good product and a bad one. I am also sure when they test something you can take it to the bank as being real.

He is not saying that Inductive is bad either as I read it, he is stating that when used on 911 engines CDI is better the choice.

Race boy, if you want to get into challenge you need to stick with the likes of me as Neil is way out of your league.

[mysocal911]

Originally Posted by Raceboy

Excellent information? What exactly? Just telling that product x is better because we say it is better? I still have not seen any valid proof why and how it is better.
I have no dog in thos race but tbh mysocal911 has provided real and tangible data on spark properties (and to be fair, Fred has also, with valid arguments) but saying just "we as engine builder say that it is good" is just nothing but hot air.

I am willing to give my twin plug ditsributor to the guy who succeeds to prove that I get real life more torque and power when switching from VEMS controlled inductive ignition (with proper coils of course) to CDI ignition.

Spot on! Once any ignition system achieves the minimum spark characteristics of; spark rise time,
spark voltage, energy level, and burn time needed to fully ignite the fuel charge, no additional
torque gain is achieved. When ignition timing becomes involved in a comparison, as is often the
case whether knowingly or not, the results get distorted and biased to one system over another.
So without a highly controlled comparative dyno test, claims of one type of ignition system over
another have essentially no value in concluding that more torque was developed.

[Raceboy]

Originally Posted by m42racer

You would be hard to find anyone on this forum with as much engine experience at the highest level, than Neil. I think with his experience and knowledge , he can tell a good product and a bad one. I am also sure when they test something you can take it to the bank as being real.

He is not saying that Inductive is bad either as I read it, he is stating that when used on 911 engines CDI is better the choice.

Race boy, if you want to get into challenge you need to stick with the likes of me as Neil is way out of your league.

Yes, and I can tell you that I have been into cars for long and deep enough not to take anything just by word of mouth.
I have very clear understanding how engine control systems work (because I have just happened to designed few systems for Porsches). Get it now?

Now knowledge check to you: if ignition coil has specified dwell time (to simplify, let's take common inductive system) of say 4 ms and engine is working perfectly showing x numbers on the dyno. Would adding another 0.5 or 1 ms of coil dwell (charge time) result in: a) more ignition energy, b) more power c) both?

[m42racer]

Originally Posted by mysocal911

So without a highly controlled comparative dyno test, claims of one type of ignition system over
another have essentially no value in concluding that more torque was developed.

I think you will find that is exactly the business they do. Check out who you are disclaiming in your posts.

I am sure they do not have to prove anything to anyone. Take a look at what they do, what they have done and their backgrounds.

This should be posts that tell many of the advantages and disadvantages so they can see what is better. They have clearly stated what they have found in their testing.

Pro engine and electronic people come on here with lots of experience, have incredible reputations, who do not have to prove anything by dyno results. Their backgrounds, experience and standing in the engine world are enough for most to accept. They offer advice for us to learn from.

I read what they say and look at who they are and what they have done. That is enough for me to make a decision. Its unfortunate that neither you Race boy or Dave, have any sort of reputation or history that convinces me to believe anything you say.

My advice to both of you, go out and do something, get a reputation and the experience of the likes of the pro's that have contributed to this thread, then come back on here.

[Jonny H]

Originally Posted by mysocal911

So without a highly controlled comparative dyno test, claims of one type of ignition system over another have essentially no value in concluding that more torque was developed.

CDI+ independent tests were conducted in a WRC engine test cell. You can't get a more controlled environment than that. Timing values are measured by independent means so there is no possibility of confusion.

The test results are in the download section here:

http://www.classicretrofit.com/911-cdi-3-pin/

The tests clearly show improved torque over a standard CDI box with no change in timing.

As Fred stated earlier, voltage plots don't tell the full story.

[Raceboy]

Originally Posted by m42racer

Its unfortunate that neither you Race boy or Dave, have any sort of reputation or history that convinces me to believe anything you say.

My advice to both of you, go out and do something, get a reputation and the experience of the likes of the pro's that have contributed to this thread, then come back on here.

I honestly do not care one bit that you are not faimilar what I have done. But clearly you do not have even enough understanding about engine control systems to distinguish between relevant information and just blabber. Otherwise you would have the ability to filter out people who do know what they talk about and people who do not. It is not about belief but knowledge. You can go to church with your belief on Sunday.
You even have problem writing my forum nickname properly. Perhaps go and have English lesson?

P.S. You did not answer my "test" question => you have no idea => fail.