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912 with 914 type 4 engine help

Hey, i'm new to the forum and was wondering if someone could point me in the righ direction for rebuilding a type 4 engine for a 912.

I don't have a 912 yet but i want to buy an engine just for something to start on. I have never rebuilt an engine so not sure if its over my head or not. Any input would be appreciated. Also can a vw bus engine and the 914 engine be rebuilt pretty much the same? thanks!
Old 10-11-2016, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1018 View Post
Hey, i'm new to the forum and was wondering if someone could point me in the righ direction for rebuilding a type 4 engine for a 912.

I don't have a 912 yet but i want to buy an engine just for something to start on. I have never rebuilt an engine so not sure if its over my head or not. Any input would be appreciated. Also can a vw bus engine and the 914 engine be rebuilt pretty much the same? thanks!
I would suggest joining the 912BBS forum, free of course and they have a special section devoted to 912 that are renegades, been modified with other engines, etc....they would be able to steer you in the right direction for your concerns....here is the link, you should navigate the forum overall, alot of wealth of info there.

912 Renegades
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1967 912 Coupe
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Old 10-12-2016, 05:17 AM
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Join 914World. That will be the best resource for rebuilding the engine.
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Old 10-12-2016, 08:12 AM
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The VW type 4 will require the 912E engine sheet metal, to drawn the air correctly, to cool the engine. The regular 912 sheet metal will not work.

I wouldn't mess with building a VW engine until you pickup the 912. You may not need a engine. They are worth more with a original 912 engine.
Old 10-12-2016, 08:32 AM
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Otto H. Wegkamp
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Nick

The 912E engine or, more correct, the VW type 4 engine is completely different from the early 912 engine. I prefer the early 912 engine, both working on it as well as driving with it. The early Porsche 912, with original carburated engine, drives with more spirit and character than the heavier 912E with original injected engine. Many of these type 4 engines have been modified to carbs, which are very hard to perfectly adapt to these engines. I've had a 914 with carbs and never got it running as perfect as I wanted.

In addition to what Jaems wrote: take your time and wait until you can buy the 912 you can afford and start with a more or less complete car. Don't buy an engine you first have to rebuild without any experience on this matter.

Otto
Old 10-12-2016, 02:59 PM
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Ok, thanks for the info guys. I know the original 912 engine would be better, but it might not be in my budget. Definitely not a 10k rebuild of a 912 engine. Thats why i was thinking about buying a few things at a time. But i'm not sure about the what engine yet, just thinking! haha
Old 10-12-2016, 04:04 PM
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Nick, I have a light, high HP Type 4 [fat Performance] I'll be installing in my early 912 as my original motor was missing like many seem to be.

I have an extra low mile 914 motor if you need it. It's complete minus the FI and has only done 78k miles.
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[B]1983 Super Carrera Coupe 'Mad Max'
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Old 10-12-2016, 04:56 PM
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By the time you rebuild a type 4; fit it in the car with the 912E sheet metal; you will have as much in the it as if you rebuild the 912.

The main problem rebuilding a 912 engine is the parts, finding them, mainly quality German bearings, both mains and rods in the right size.

The body rust will be the biggest problem you will have; unless you purchase one that already has been done. If you find one of those the engine will probably have already, also, been done.

You need to take an experience early 912 Porsche owner with you when you are going to buy. They will know or should know and can point out where the bad rust points are hidden. Someone like Otto, here.
Old 10-13-2016, 09:50 AM
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Otto H. Wegkamp
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I indeed have some rust experience .....



... and always willing to help,

Otto
Old 10-13-2016, 12:15 PM
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The 616 motor will cost a bunch more to make much less HP and torque than a Type 4. The Type 4 is very light and robust too. Fabricating a little sheet metal is easy.
Show me a 616 motor like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty-9VRUmrHY

Here's fat performance with a 616:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH05ItJANjs

Here's a 2.6L with close to 200 BHP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlBnPcD_JjY

You simply have so much more available for the Type 4 engine. Emory used to use Fat Performance Type 4s in their builds prior to the Polo.

Fat quoted me $11-12K for a 2.6L Type 4 with my core Type 4 engine I had in the shop. (mild street engine w 160 BHP) But they have a catalogue with all
their goodies and prices are very good.

Here's a German Type 4 builder w 230 BHP Type 4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joIMH8B6eF8
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[B]1983 Super Carrera Coupe 'Mad Max'
1969 911E targa Crystal Blue / Black (selling)
1968 SWB 912 "Stinger 912R 1680 lbs
1977 911S coupe "Bandit" all original for now

Last edited by Fixer; 10-13-2016 at 01:29 PM..
Old 10-13-2016, 01:02 PM
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f I end up getting a 912 without an engine, what do ya'll think of a type 1 engine? With about the same hp as a 912 engine. say around 100hp
Old 10-13-2016, 04:31 PM
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Type 4 or the factory 'big block' VW motor is an evolution of the old Type 1 which dates back to WW2. Type 4 has better durability, better case, better oiling and was designed to make torque and does.
But you can make the type 1 make 100 HP +++ easily these days.
It's just not as durable.

BTW, I have a low mile [78K original] never taken apart 1.8L Type 4 for sale on Samba and here guys if anyone needs one. $750
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Matt Mariani, Philly Pa IG: matt_mariani_rsc
[B]1983 Super Carrera Coupe 'Mad Max'
1969 911E targa Crystal Blue / Black (selling)
1968 SWB 912 "Stinger 912R 1680 lbs
1977 911S coupe "Bandit" all original for now

Last edited by Fixer; 10-13-2016 at 08:32 PM..
Old 10-13-2016, 08:29 PM
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I'm starting this journey myself. My 69 912 has its original 76K motor. But I would like to have more torque and top end. Rather than take a great original motor and remake it, I'm rebuilding a Porsche 914 1.8L. Once rebuilt, it will be 2056cc's. my target CR is 9.0:1. I'm not sure about induction at this point. I'd love to use throttle bodies, but they may be beyond my reach right now.

The seller HENCAR on The Samba is a super guy and he has some choice Type 4 parts for sale.

Steve
Old 10-14-2016, 06:09 AM
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You can also buy FI and Turbo kits for like $3000 and have some real power and torque. Obviously if you choose this route leave the low compression in the 1.8L.
You could simply 'slap' this kit on your 1.8L and have instant power.
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[B]1983 Super Carrera Coupe 'Mad Max'
1969 911E targa Crystal Blue / Black (selling)
1968 SWB 912 "Stinger 912R 1680 lbs
1977 911S coupe "Bandit" all original for now
Old 10-14-2016, 02:09 PM
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However guy's, you will have a Renegade instead of a 912 Porsche, with a type 4, or 1, or any other type a engine. It will then be a Porsche/VW, Porsche/Subaru, and etc. That is why term Renegade was given to those 901/902 body styles. The term outlaw only is designated for the 356 and is bestowed on those 356 by Gary Emory. He was the original one that invented the term for his custom 356s. He father was a well known Hot Rod customizer for the 50's in Southern California.

The 914 is really a VW/Porsche and was sold around the world as a VW/Porsche. It had a VW body with a massaged by Porsche VW type engine. Only in the US did they change the name. VW could not import it as a VW because US Government did not consider VW as a sports car manufacturer and to make stricter guild lines. So VW rebadged it as a Porsche and sold it through Porsche/ Audi dealerships.

Term with the body manufacturer/ and different engine have been used since after WWI may even before. Like the Lotus/Ford, Lotus /Porsche, AC/Ford, AC/Bristol, AC Cobra are a couple of the more common.



I have known Gary Emory and his son Ron and family for over 25 years. I have also made every Porsche campout that Parts obsolete had. I believe it was at the 2004 campout when we decided to call the 911/912 hot rods, Renegades. A couple of people that had 912's with different engines, that came to the campout, wanted Gary to give them one of his outlaw badges so they could have a 912 outlaw. In the pass he had given one outlaw badge to a 912. It was the one that he had built for John to go racing. Picture below. To smooth things over we came up with the tern Renegade. I designed a badge, T-shirt, and etc. for them and some may still have them and use them.

.










A added note Gary has never used a Type 4 or type 1 in a 911, 912 or a 356.
Old 10-15-2016, 09:46 AM
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Rear torsion bar out of an early SWB 911. VW made.

912 with Type 4 with 60-70% more power? sign me up.

"A added note Gary has never used a Type 4 or type 1 in a 911, 912 or a 356."
Gary's son Rod Emory offers the VW Type 4 from Fat Performance, here it is in there own words on the Emory Motorsports website. Look half way down:

"An alternative costing about half the price is a FAT Performance-assembled 2650cc Type 4 boxer, fitted with a 911-style fan shroud, together with 44 or 48mm carburettors. A third choice, though less popular, is the use of a highly-tuned 356 or 912 powerplant."
Emory Motorsports - History

I bought a Fat Performance 2.5L for my Porsche 912R build.
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[B]1983 Super Carrera Coupe 'Mad Max'
1969 911E targa Crystal Blue / Black (selling)
1968 SWB 912 "Stinger 912R 1680 lbs
1977 911S coupe "Bandit" all original for now

Last edited by Fixer; 10-17-2016 at 03:40 PM..
Old 10-15-2016, 05:59 PM
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Whatever you want to call them, souped up 912's are a blast to drive. I'm headed to California in about a week to pick up a 2.7 POLO for a friend. I love my 2.4 2cam4 POLO. 11.3CR, 993 sport cams, 993 P&C's, 993 heads with titanium valves, stock 993 stroked crank, and full engine management. The engine starts to pull strong at about 3000 rpm and pulls non stop to 7200. Drive it 2500 to 5000 rpm as a cruiser or drive it 5000 to 7200 in anger. It doesn't care. I just drove a 2.7 E camed 912-6 3 days ago. It wasn't as fast and felt like it had a boat anchor out back.
A custom pea shooter exhaust with heat is next on the agenda. That SS muffler is heavy. I think I can cut 10 pounds off the tail end of the car.
Here is a picture of the POLO and a 616 fixed up to look like a 4 cam.
Chris


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1959 Auratium Green 356A Super w/ Rudge wheels
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Last edited by cmpski; 10-16-2016 at 06:57 AM..
Old 10-16-2016, 06:35 AM
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Check out the silver cars motor.

http://youtu.be/jwln2ji-yOE
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Old 10-16-2016, 07:39 AM
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Notice Jay picked the car with the POLO. And what turned him on was the torque and the ability to go north of 7000 RPM. My car is only 100 lbs heaver. I've driven a Fat 2.6. It had great torque but did feel strained much past 5500 rpm. That's where the POLO really starts to make great music. I didn't have to have one till I went for a ride. Then I HAD to have one. My licence plate frame says "Handles like a 912. Goes like a 911". Under 125 mph the car can hang with most 3000 pound 300 hp newer Porsche's. 125 is not close to it's top speed, but the car get's a little floaty north of that. If you've never been in a car with a POLO put it on your bucket list. The 2nd one on the road is owned by the 901 Shop in Fl. When they let a customer go drive the car they come back and say "that's not possible". Don't believe it, go here.

Riders and Drivers - * reSee Works​previously Pompolo Design
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1959 Auratium Green 356A Super w/ Rudge wheels
1970 Irish Green 914-6 w/2.2S
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Handles like a 912 and goes like a 911
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Old 10-16-2016, 08:03 PM
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Most Porsche engines come on at 4000 rpms. That is where the torque starts and why you have to rev the engine from a standing start. You should also keep the rmps above 3000 so as not to lug the engine.

My torque comes on around 3000 and is not lugging even at 2500. However, my HP peaks out at between 5700 and 5800 by the dyno. My red line is above 6500. For top end I have pegged my 200 KMH speedometer. My car is very streetable, quick, and built for longevity. However, it is just a Porsche 912 engine with some special factory parts.

Back in the 70's my friend had a stock 911S 2.2lr lightweight, that red line at 7900. He had to keep the car at about 5000 where his torque came on. Just to drive it down the street, without lugging it, in first or second. It was very quick and fast. The top end was well north of 160miles. You can imagine what it sounded like drive in the city at 5000 rpms in first gear.

So if the polo engine that doesn't come on until 5000. It should not be a very streetable more for a track. I remember the first polo engine Gary and Rod put in that 356 outlaw roadster. It was up at the campout and I talk to Dean about putting one in my 912. If I was ever going to change the engine. It would be the Polo.

Quote:
125 is not close to it's top speed, but the car get's a little floaty north of that
.

To handle the floating above 125. You need to add a 911S front bumper and the rear duck tail. This will stable it out.

However, I have always driven Porsches like I stole them. It is why I only have a 912 left anymore. I sold all of the 911S, Carrera's that I have owned. The engine that I have, in my 912, is quick enough without having to drive it on a race track. I have only had one ticket in it Since I have own it over 45 years. Been stopped a few times but only one ticket.
Old 10-17-2016, 11:05 AM
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