engine options

[mr-dwight]

I'm trying to figure what options I have for my '70 1.7L engine. Should I go with a 6 or just bore out the 1.7? What kind of horse power can I expect from a big bore conversion? Will my FI still work?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[BigD9146gt]

In the short run, the 4 will cost less. In the long run, the 6 will cost less. In both short and long run, the 6 will increase the value, and last a lot longer than the 4 with equal amounts of power. To do a six right, taking your time and collecting conversion parts, and a used but good 2.7L six, should run you about $6000 for everything.

The FI will only work with a stock cam. I imagine that the larger bore changes a few more things.

Regardless, the Type 4 was a simple work horse motor. The six is a performance motor.

[mikey]

I'm sure Jake Raby would disagree!!!

[Rouser]

Should I go with a 6 or just bore out the 1.7?

This question (and subsequent answers/solutions) will go on forever. Bottom line: How much do you want to spend, and when do you want to spend it?

Sometimes it's easier (i.e. cheaper) to sell what you have (if it's in really good condition), find what you want (a stalled or unfinished -6 conversion/project), buy it, and bank the grief, especially if you just recently noticed that the 1.7L isn't an overwhelming performer.

[mr-dwight]

OK I'm not really dying to spend 6K on the engine.
I guess that leaves me with the 1.7 conversion. I need some information on how to get started with the big bore conversion as well as what I can expect to get out of the machine after the conversion. Any ideas?

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com has lots of good info, and some propoganda as well.

BTW, a $6K -6 conversion is the exception rather than the rule. Most of them wind up being $10K or more. (It's easy to "while-you're-in-there" your budget to many times its original size.)

--DD

[BigD9146gt]

Originally posted by mikey
I'm sure Jake Raby would disagree!!!

Mikey, calm down. Jake's life is the type 4 and other 4 cylinder varients, so keep things in persective. Its his passion to play with the aircooled flat 4 cylinder, and i respect the work he does.

Do you know how much his super motor (~185hp) costs? Try $8000... Thats a low mileage 3.2 six with oil tank and engine mount. Figure another $1000 for the lines and clutch conversion kit. Now you can drive literally from Florida, up to New York, over to Washington (the state), down to Baja, then back to Florida without worrying. Plus, you could spank any big bore 914-4 that you come across.

Yes, its alot of money, but keep things in perspective.

Ask anyone on the board who has done a six conversion. The only ones that seem make any negative comments are those who, after you find out how they did the conversion, blantently cut corners (haak job) and was the result of their un-happy experience.

Dave, i agree with the "might as well" comment, but some have stuck to a strict install sucessfully. The idea crossed my mind, but i'm not disaplined.

mr dwight, have fun with the rebuild. Keep a strict install code for this too, as you could be reaching 6 $$$ land once your in. Have a local Pelican member check out your motor or post picks here to let others give you some feed back on what you probably should spend your money on.

[Rouser]

Here we go, big -4 vs. -6 conversion. mr-dwight, see what I mean?

It's obvious your wallet isn't as willing as your desires. If it were me, I would find a decent 2.0L (sidelined from one of the above-mentioned "-6 conversions"), tweek it with a few performance mods (cam, pistons, minor headwork, carbs), and drop THAT into your '70. This way, your car isn't sidelined for weeks/months/years while you figure out the cheapest way to install/route/solve this-or-that problem.

Don't get into this argurment, unless you have the $6K+ entrance fee.

[mikey]

Hey BigD9146g............You obviously did not pick up my wit. And I am very calm already.....heheheheheh But thanks.

Mike

[Alfred1]

Type IV hp is expensive. Go to http://www.kennedyeng.com to see more transplants options.

P.S.
I'm wireless. Woo hoo!

[skline]

I really want to say something in here but I dont want to start a war on the 4,6,8 engine install. Yes, I have a V8 conversion and its not that cheap but it is cheaper than say a Raby 4 or a 6 but there are other things to consider. A V8 car does not make for a good AX car as it has too much power. My first 914 was a 73 and it had a 1.7 in it when I bought it. It was worn out but still had the FI on it. This was back in 83 and parts were in abundance back then. I bought a set of 45 Dellorto's brand new with the linkage and everything from Small Car Specialties for $350.00. Web cams were right down the street here in Costa Mesa and I got an 86b cam and lifters from them. I went with 96mm pistons and cylinders that were around $200.00. I had Rimco do all the machine work and lighten the flywheel to 11 pounds. That engine was way strong and the car was very fast. Reliable? I dont know, I sold the car after driving it for about a year and a half and then got married and had a kid so I sold it. I did have to replace the CV joints after shearing them off a few times and blew out a clutch in an emergency downshift to avoid an accident but other than that, the car was my daily driver. I say do what you can afford and what you feel comfortable with. Just drive it and have fun.

[mr-dwight]

Well first let me say thank you to everyone that has had some advice for me.

I looked up Raby's website, but as of yet I have not gotten a response. I am beginning to get a little concerned about what he must charge - as no prices are listed anywhere and a few of the guys on the BBS have suggested they are a pretty penny.

What to do?

I live in Memphis, and there is no one reliable to work on a 914 or even give advice. What I would REALLY like is to find an engine rebuilder that I can speak with and find out what my options are. I must admit that I would rather keep a type IV in the car, but my mind is open if I can find a reasonable alternative.

Thanks for all your help.

[ws91420]

Jake has some type of annoucement on Feb 1. Rumors abound on what it is. Most are saying it is a way you can buy the stuff he uses and build it yourself. Take it for what its worth but check back on Jakes site Feb 1.

[BigD9146gt]

Dwight, get the yellow pages out and start looking for german auto shops. Ask auto parts stores who they would recommend. If you see another Porsche, catch them at a stop light and ask who they use. It might take you a month, but with consistants you get a feeling of who people say is good, and who to steer clear of.

Rouser, i fail to see your point, I don't have $6K either.

Don't be so negative, my point to dwright is get a goal. skline's examples are great too, and I don;t see it as a "war", but rather listing the facts (ie: $$$), is that always an arguement? Sure you can spend boatloads of money on ANY project, doesn't matter how many cylinders there are.

dwight, post some pics if you can. As for your options, here we go:
Parts-ballpark $
gasket set: $45
crank, cam, rod bearings: $150
piston rings: $75
new cam and lifters: $200
new pistons and cycliners: $400

Now getting into the heads, it really depends. guilds are $5 each(x8), stainless valves $20(x8), the work to install and flycut $200-$300.

If you just want it to drive it, i'd re-ring it cause the cast iron cylinders are pretty stong, machine the heads, and not touch the bottom end. Those are pretty stout in stock form. You could do that much of the rebuild with a haynes manual and send the heads to a good machine shop. That way the cars down for a month or so and you can then enjoy the car and focus on any other suspention/body parts that may need more attention.

If you want more power, i'm go with a used 2.0L that someone else already put a cam and carbs on. Thats the best power/money option. But as soon as you say 160hp, leave the type 4 alone and start saving for a bigger motor.

[Rouser]

Rouser, i fail to see your point, I don't have $6K either.

Even a -6 or V8 conversion can brush up against the $6K realm if you don't possess the skills to do it "right;" witness some of the eBay box-of-rocks passing off for $9K+. And please, I don't need to hear how you're managing to do it all with just the change in your pocket.

Don't be so negative, my point to dwright is get a goal. skline's examples are great too, and I don;t see it as a "war", but rather listing the facts (ie: $$$), is that always an arguement? Sure you can spend boatloads of money on ANY project, doesn't matter how many cylinders there are.

Yeah, right. It NEVER starts out as a personal-perspective war (big -4 vs. -6 vs. V6/8); it only winds up that way, fueled by the very people who jump on posts like this. First responses are "Oo, oo, my current project is ..." or "I'm doing a ..." or "You should try a ..."

RARELY is the first post, "How much do you want to spend?" That question usually pops up around the 30 or 40th post. I just got lucky and made it the 3rd post, and you call that being NEGATIVE?

[schosh]

Yo Mr Dwight
good to hear of another teener here in the midsouth ...there are 2 or 3 others here in the midtown Memphis area. The bad news is that there are no real aircooled oriented repair shops in the area.
Roy Rogers parts in south memphis has some good guys that can give some help, but for good advice this board , along with the type4um on shoptalkforums.com, are where I go. I get my parts from Pelican (and occanionaly aircooled.net, ) and have used Rimco in LA for machine work. I learned the hard way (droped valve ) what happens when you use a machine shop that has limited knowledge of the peculiarities of our engines.

I've heard rumors of a good shop in Huntsville...but at that point why not just ship the parts to LA?

I would agree with those that say build a stout 2 liter and enjoy a spirited and dependable ride.
Bill
schosser@midsouth.rr.com

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

BigD, I'd guesstimate that some of your prices are a bit on the low side. Stock cams are in the $300 range ($285 up to $395!!), stock lifters are $10 each... A new Web-Cam with lifters and cam gear will run you around $350... (Prices are from our catalog; you may be able to find them for less elsewhere but you wouldn't be supporting this BBS... )

I'd be very tempted to send the heads off to either Rimco ( http://www.rimcovw.com ), or to Len Hoffman at HAM ( http://www.haminc.biz ). Len seems to have the best reputation at the moment, and can probably talk to you about your needs and your budget.

Note that cams these days are a bit of a crap-shoot. There are a small but significant number of people who are installing new cams only to have them go flat within the first thousand miles or so. Then again, some motors go together and run just fine...

--DD

[mikey]

Hey mr-dwight....I have a webcam 86a with lifters and cam gear that is already broken in. It has around 5k miles on it and looks great. I will sell it with the lifters and gear for $200

Mike

[BigD9146gt]

Dave, i was just guessing. Its been a long time since i've even looked at TIV prices.

Roaser, easy does it. This isn't a pissing contest... Sounds like your in 6 denial, or did some other prick with a 6 make fun of you? My project has ran on pocket change for the past 3 years, and one day i'll start saving for the engine. I'd never heard of hte $6K entrence fee before, did you get a memo?

RARELY is the first post, "How much do you want to spend?" That question usually pops up around the 30 or 40th post. I just got lucky and made it the 3rd post, and you call that being NEGATIVE?

Carefull, you don't want to sprain your arm patting yourself on the back!

[Jake Raby]

Mr. Dwight,
I looked through al our emails and I did not see one from you today.

At the moment I am putting in 20 hour days trying to get ready for Feb 1st as well as the normal workload, so please excuse my lack of promptness.

I am working to make having a "Raby Engine" in yourcar much easier and les expensive. This is going to be accomplished in a few different ways.

as far as my engines being a "pretty penny" I will tell you that the average amount of man hours in one of my engines is 80! when you consider that the labor guides only allow a 20 hour charge to R&R and rebuild of a stock engine- I'm only making pennies an hour at my rates.

My engines are what they are because of the development and research exerted into their refinement. I do an average of 30 engines a year, Vs. hundreds done by shops that specialize in good prices. The difference is that my engine doesn't leak oil, doesn't break, idles like it stock, drive's like a gentlemen or hauls ass like a terror and all that is the result of pure old effort.

The prices of my engines have went up, the time alloted to each engine has went up, but with my new plan you can have the engine you want whether I build it, or you build it- and its never been easier before.

Look at the pages of myR&D on my website. Most other builders have never heard of those developments, yet alone utilized them- They don't care to, its only a job to them!

As for prices.. This isn't Wal- Mart, its not Bill's Minute lube and it sure as hell isn't a production line......

The day when I can read your mind through the computer, put my butt in the seat of your car and do it all through the internet i can give you an accurate price. I try my hardest NOT to build the same engine twice.... Call West Coast Choopers and ask for a price on a custom bike and you won't get an answer either. Custom work isn't cheap and its not for everyone but many appreciate my method of doing business because once I do give you a price, its in writing, its signed and it don't change a penny.

3 weeks ago I sold a 2270 TIV for 6500 bucks.. Last night I sold a 2270 for 15K bucks...... Everything is dependant upon everything else your imagination and desires are the only limits in a shop like mine, ran by an absolute insane person like myself.......

I can say the cheapest engine I build is 6500.00, balanced, blueprinted, dyno tuned, 100% complete with a signature.