944 to 951 Conversion Let the flaming begin!

[Dan in Pasadena]

1st - Sorry for the length of this post.
Okay, I'm upside down on my '87 Guards Red 944 - just like all of you! It looks very good to excellent from 15 feet, but it has issues. An old cheap-ass body repair on the lower right side and a hood/air dam repaint look, frankly...cheapo. Someone keyed the left rear - I touched up, very minor dent on roof - you get the picture. Plus I have a 951 valence I've never put on it.

Okay, a friend has a painter that he has had paint a number of cars and the guy is very, very good. He has a small shop, his rates are very low as he is an immigrant and does not speak English well. But he's got a constant backlog and I've seen his work - really impressive. He's slow, but excellent. He will blow my car apart, repaint it, make all repairs for $2200-2400. Yes, I'd be even more upside down. I have been looking at 911's for awhile and have not bit...yet. To make matters worse, I inquired about doing a snubnose mod and he asked about swapping a 951 front.
He has a customer with a totalled 951 hit hard in the rear. He says he can get me the entire car for $500-600. I've not seen it yet, but initialy we were talking about swapping the 951 complete front end onto my car. I am okay, with that - I know others disagree, fine.

My questions:

Opinions on the front end/repaint swap?

Opinions on a DIY swap of the 951 "guts" into my one family/two owner car? After all, I have been looking at 911's for performance as well as panache!

Yes, I know the stock answer is sell and buy a 951. I am partial to this car as it saw me through a very rough period in my life (post divorce from 20 year marriage, lost everything, etc.) I would, of course have to understand the condition of the wrecked car. BUt even if no gut swap, I might be able to part the remainder of the 951 to offset much of the repaint job, but having a leaking hulk in my driveway for months is not too attractive, thoughts please.

[earlr85944]

first quick impression, buy a 951 in nice condition.

[scottmandue]

DO IT!

I have had an epiphany that my car will never be worth what I think it is and to get it where I want it will cost thousands more...

But WTF did I really think I was going to make money on this car? No!
Just like any hobby you invest money in it for the fun of it.

If we were into golf would we worry about how much we spend on clubs and green fee's?

I also have though of switching to a 911 but in the end it would only be to impress people . I own and drive a 944 because it is fun and one of the best handling cars in the world in it's day.
(Edit rude 911 refernce) I don't care if a hopped up Honda can beat me in drag race... if I did I would sell the 944 and buy a Corvette.

Oh my look at me rant on... sorry too much caffeine... not the flaming you were expecting eh?

Party on Garth!

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Dan,

This sounds like exactly what I might be looking for in my Callaway project; I priced a couple of guys that would "do it right" to paint the car including taking all the panels off, sanding (NOT THROUGH THE &($&(&%!!! GALVANIZING!!!), priming and painting QUALITY product. I'd personally like about 4-5 coats of base and about the same of clearcoat. I don't care how long it takes or how long I'm without the car - I want it done right.

The downside is the "best" price I got was over $6,000, which needless to say is ridiculous. If I were to deliver the car along with some other stuff to put in during reassembly (new seats, dash, etc.) do you think I could get a comparable price? Shoot me a PM here or on Rennlist; I'd love to discuss.

[Dantilla]

My 911 was such a project. 1973 body with 1987 running gear and suspension. I did it much cheaper than most, because I had the two complete cars to pick parts from. With two cars, you're in the same situation. Part of me says go for it. Another part of me is aware that after all the time and expense, although you will have a great car, if someone hits you hard enough to total it, an insurance company will likely give you next to nothing, because it was simply an old non-original econo-Porsche in their eyes.

The value of early 911s is increasing. I am amazed at the attention my 911 gets at autocrosses for being a bunch of used parts thrown together (Well, it is a pretty cool car!). As long as you're comfortable going WAY upside-down, go ahead.

[scottmandue]

Hope this isn't getting too OT
Funny I was thinking just yesterday of "things I want to do with my 944"
1. New seat covers
2. New genuine Porsche floor mats
3. Fix stereo (needs new speakers all around)
4. Fix sunroof (bought motor cables etc to upgrade... two years ago!)
5. Fix "gasoline" smell (pull up carpet, fix replace vent hose and whatever)
Okay now it gets interesting.
6. Get belts, rollers, everting, done by a good mechanic $
7. Get 16" fuchs$
8. Get LSD tranny $$
9. Get paint job $$$

FWIW there is a great paint shop in San Pedro called Y&S not cheap but they do excellent work, the are Mercedes certified etc. however I don't even want to think what it would cost to have them do the job.

Although my dad owns a building here that has a paint shop and he had some work done on his Cadillac and he was raving about what a good job they did so I may look into having him do some paint "maintenance" piece by piece, do the door dings in one visit, rock chips on another. If he does a good job I could let you guys know, he is a small shop and probably reasonably priced.

Can't shut me up this morning! Sorry.

[AFJuvat]

Well, I'll deviate from the stock answer slightly.

Yes, by all means, it can be done and it can be done correctly. That said, you are looking at a few significant modifications to get everything working correctly. (Engine wiring harness, dashboard wiring harness, etc.)

This is a very labor intensive and costly process. This does not include the money spent fixing the 951 engine - you would be foolish NOT to do the belts and seals etc while you had the engine out of the car. 951 motors are much more difficult to work on in the car.

Think long and hard before you jump into this. If you have access to a lift and a few helpful friends, you can save yourself a bunch of money. If you are paying someone to do this, you will be close to, if not exceeding the cost of a decent 951

AFJuvat

[Dan in Pasadena]

Scotmandue - Thanks for the response. I just turned 50 and feel almost the same way you do. I really, really LOVE the look of 911's, but all-in-all (not having driven a 964 or 993) they are SO different fro mthe "feel" of a 944/928 I sometiems wonder if I'd be happy longer term with the raw-ness of how they drive and shift. Yes, I KNOW that is half the attraction, just my personal opinion. Sure, definitely more "go", no question.

Porsche-o-Phile. The guy referring me to this painter dropped off his '77 he is having redone in original Talbot yellow this morning. All new rubber, car blown apart. He has ANOTHER 911, a '71T in Irish green that is going to be a bar-none as-good-as-the-guy-can-do job and it will probably run closer to 4000-4500, but some minor rust repair is included. More $$ of course if he encounters significant rust.

I can definitely take you to the guy, but... DO you speak Spanish? I do, but only fair. My buddy is fluent and has a long relationship with the guy. He has done many Porsches, his knowledge of the cars is very good.

A word of caution though, my buddy's car was dropped off this morning and he says no matter what Juan tells you for length of time to do the job, triple it. He knows from experience. If you could live with that (I can) then fine, but if its just going to upset you and have you re-thinking the wisdom of using somebody referred off the board, then you probably need another painter. On the othetr hand? He says he can't take my car for 2-3 weeks. YOu could see the '77 in the next couple of days to see the "Before" condition, watch the timeframe yourself, and then see the"After" condition and have a no-BS idea of what you get, and how long it takes.

[scottmandue]

Dan could you PM me the name of the shop, just for future reference.
Like I said I will probably have the local guy do some bandaid fixes and dump my money into mechanical upgrades, but someday...

[scottmandue]

Oh yeah,
10. Get FRwilk chip

My point being Dan if you add up all the stuff I want to do to my car I'll never get the money back out of it.

Hey, just never sell you car...
Problem solved!

[fast924S]

I hear ya on the dont sell the car comment, I Have a ton of money into my 1987 924S with all the mods and repairs, Im still not done yet, But its ok because it just a fun hobby, I know I would never get what I have put into it back if I ever sold it. SO until yhe day comes where I just dont like the car anymore, Im gonna keep dumping more money into her.

[Ferrara_racing]

Dan,

You spend a lot more time in the dirt than on top of it, do what makes you happy. I'm only half a decade behind you in age and already know the feeling you eluded to. As far as the 944. It's a very good fun driving vehicle. Seems Porsche people and outsiders alike mallign the car all the time. I notice most everyone who has ever owned one enjoyed it.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally posted by FR Wilk
We'll have none of that!

Hey Floyd! Nice to hear you chime in. Yes, us waterpumpers guys can NOT be looking for panache, can we!

Scottmandue - This shop is so small - literally off an alley next to a Walgreen pharmacy in Eagle Rock - when my buddy and I dropped his car off yesterday I didn't notice a sign. In fact, I don't think it has a name. It's just "Juan's shop". It has a booth, a couple of stalls and a very small chain link area with a couple of Alfa's in there, a 60's Mercedes roadster and a primo orange BMW 2002 the customer has not picked up yet. I will talk to my buddy today and either get a phone number or figure out some way to get you an address or at least close to one. By the way, your TO DO List? I've done almost all of it. Well, I could use my front seats recovered, but secretly covet some sport seats. I've got fully polished 16" PD's on it with colored center caps. Bought for $5500 in April 2001 from original owner (sister-in-law) immediately dropped a chunk-o-cash into all fluids, filters, hoses, timing and balance shaft belts, tuneup, battery, H20 pump. Later clutch, motor mounts, brakes, and last? blew a head gasket - "while I was in there" had the valves reground, FRWilk chip. TO say the car is well-sorted is an understatement and yet it needs more! THATS why I question my own sanity. AND why I want to consider swapping a 951's motor/tranny/computer.etc into it. I am just in so deep already.