New 951 - More Advice Please, Part II

[Dan in Pasadena]

The "new" turbocharger is in, I drove her around the block for the first time this afternoon. I was driving it with the Manual Boost Controller at its lowest setting and did not attempt to dial it up as I don't know the car yet, the boost gage has not been received/installed yet. But Wow! It's got some definite "poop" compared to my NA....well, actually there IS no comparison to the acceleration of my NA. I have limited experience with turbos but there is definitely some lag...
QUESTION #1 This is normal, I assume?

Overall, it "feels" funny compared to my NA. Seating is lower - they're not 944 seats...I think. The actual butt cushion extends forward, beyond the rest of the seat under your thighs by an inch or so. The hatch rattles like hell. The car just feels foreign. QUESTION #2 Seems like the 944 and 951 should "feel" (not acceleration) the same overall, yes?

Other problems, the cooling fan isn't coming on...not sure if "not at all" (probably) or just not staying on after shutting the car off. The fan should run for at least 30 seconds, correct? Need your help QUESTION #3 Most likely cause? Correct fix?

The stick is sloppy as hell compared to my NA. The good news is the synchros are much better than my NA. 1st-2nd upshift is silky smooth. I have no interest in a "short shift" kit, I want the "snick-snick" stock factory feel.
QUESTION #4 Some kind of bushings? Is this a reasonable do-it-myself job? Cost? Sold by our host?

The oil pressure sending unit is not connected. I will connect it of course, but my NA has always run 2-3 bars at idle and a full 5 when at speed. I've heard that is unusual.
QUESTION #5 What should I expect if all is well, once the wiring is connected? ALL help appreciated.

[schmedes1]

Dan, can you hook us up for seats at the next Rose Parade for all this gratis info???

[Dan in Pasadena]

Actually, If you stand on my roof, you can see the Parade going by in front of the houses behind mine. You definitely don't sleep in on Jan 1...the marching bands alone would wake the dead.

[KellyC]

Hey Dan,

I just saw your car today as I dropped of my 951 at Strictly German to get the clutch replaced.

All the problems can be done by yourself... they are not too bad.

The oil weight determines what pressure the sender should read. When cold, my oil pressure reads 5 bar, even at idle, when the car is warmed up, my pressure reads 2 bar. But then again I'm running 10w30 because my car rarely sees heavy track duty. Also I don't like running 5w50 because it takes forever to warm up. Just personal preferance.

As to the shifter, its either the bushing, the actual shaft of the shift lever or the hole in the shift linkage where the shaft goes through... its likely the last part thats creating all the slop. You could always find a way to shrink that hole down in the shift lever.

By the way I live just northeast of Pasadena in Sierra Madre... PM me if you want to borrow/reference the printed versions of the service manuals

[pokey]

It sounds like you have the same shifter problem I just fixed in mine. SoCal had great advice on doing the repair. Basicly, there is a stud on the shift lever that wears out. You need to grind it's weld off and replace it with a 3/8"x2" bolt and 2 jam nuts. You also drill out the eye on the shift rod that the stud goes through to 7/16" (you use 3 bits to open it gradually), and insert a piece of brass tubing as a bushing. Then grind the head of the bolt down, as well as the jam nuts (so you have enough clearance with the sheetmetal around the shifter), put a washer on the bolt, a little grease, and slide it through the bushing you inserted (from the right side, threads to the left), put the wavy washer back on the bolt, followed by a thinned down jam nut. Then you move the shift lever into position over the bolt thread end and put on another jam nut, tighten the two jam nuts against the shift lever and you're done. If you have any questions, give me a call on my cell, 562.843.1106.
Mark

[scheistermeiste]

heres for the shifter:
http://www.tech-session.com/kb/index.php?page=index_v2&id=95&c=4

[pokey]

I didn't have a tap handy. The The whole deal took me about ten minutes. I also cut my shift lever down about 1.5 inches, for a shorter throw and more comfortable driving. I have an aftermarket pistol grip shift knob that just has a set screw to hold it on, so I didn't need to notch the lever.

[DannoXYZ]

" there IS no comparison to the acceleration of my NA. I have limited experience with turbos but there is definitely some lag...
QUESTION #1 This is normal, I assume?"

The turbo-lag is intentionally programmed into the chips, haven't figured out why though...


"QUESTION #2 Seems like the 944 and 951 should "feel" (not acceleration) the same overall, yes?"

No, the acceleration of the 951 will make you wet your pants compared what you're used to on the NA. But from 0-3500rpm, it will be slower than the NA. This is partly due to the 951's 8.0:1 compression compared to the 9.6-10.2:1 compression on the NA. So off-boost in the low-RPMs, the NA will make more native all-motor torque while the 951 will be better once max-boost is hit around 3500rpms. I've been running an NA engine in my 951 with boost for the past year, it's definitely much more responsive down low off-boost compared to a normal 951, the best of both worlds.


"The fan should run for at least 30 seconds, correct? Need your help QUESTION #3 "

I think you're getting the turbo water-pump mixed up with the radiator fans. They are on completely different circuits. The two fans on the radiator runs off the thermo-switch in the radiator. One of them runs all the time. When temps get hotter while you're running or while you're stationary, the 2nd fan will kick in and the 1st one will run at high-speed. They will run as long as necessary until the temps drop to turn off the thermo-switch. The 30-second timer only runs the turbo water-pump, nothing to do with fans.


"QUESTION #4 Some kind of bushings? Is this a reasonable do-it-myself job? Cost? Sold by our host?"

Should be easy to repair. There's a pin on the shift-lever that hooks up to the shift-rod that goes to teh tranny. This pin wears out over time and gives you slop. People have done various things to bring this pin back up to proper-diameter including cutting it off and welding/bolting a new one on. Or they install a shim and/or washer of some sort.


"The oil pressure sending unit is not connected. I will connect it of course, but my NA has always run 2-3 bars at idle and a full 5 when at speed. I've heard that is unusual.
QUESTION #5 What should I expect if all is well, once the wiring is connected? ALL help appreciated."

Your NA's operation is correct. Should be around 3-bar when fully warmed up, 5-bar at operating speed above 3000rpm or so. When it's cold, it'll be at 5-bar also until the oil warms up. The two switches on the sensor is for the oil-light and oil-pressure gauge. If you have them reversed, it will peg at above 5-bar continuously and not lower when you're up to temps. Unlike popular myth perpertrated online, if the wires are reversed, turning thee key to ON will NOT make the gauge peg immediately, you have to actually run the engine, at which point it will stick at 5.5-bar until you turn off the engine.

[onewhippedpuppy]

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/944M/POR_944M_pedals_pg1.htm#item3

By far the easiest way to fix the shifter if you want to keep the stock boot. Scroll down the page, it's $43.85. I just replaced mine, and the difference is amazing! Don't forget the ball cup bushing, it's like $2.50.

You should hear the turbo water pump running for 30 sec after shutting it off, if not there's a problem that needs fixed, sometimes the pumps go out.

Hatch rattle is often the glass seperating from the frame, but I fixed 90% of mine by tightening every nut in the rear wiper assembly. Sounds too easy, but it made a HUGE difference. If you don't have a rear wiper though, you're SOL.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Thanks everyone. I'm at at work so I printed out the thread and am reading everyone's advice.

KellyC - I drove by the shop this morning before it opened and saw my car on the lift, but thought I saw another 944 in there as I passed, must be yours. Guards red too? Tell me yours is running right because I am going in there today and make sure everything on mine is corrected to be wired/plumbed like yours! Because of the deleted wastegate (%#@)
and the oil pressure sensor not being connected (WTF?!) I am questioning everything under that hood until I see another correct 951 and can compare. Your timing couldn't be better. YES I would LOVe to borrow/copy(?) your service manuals. You are really, close to me. My house is just north of the 210 Fwy, probably 2-3 miles from you at most. PM me and we'll get together and compare notes

As to the shifter, I am fine with doing any of these upgrades, but if a $43 part will put it back to stock unworn feel, I'm there - Thanks (again) Matt - onewhippedpuppy. By the way, the Summit gauge came in and I am dropping it off this a.m. I'll post pix of my final configuration when done.

You guys have really helped me out.

[onewhippedpuppy]

All the other fixes are just cheaper ways of fixing it, the new shifter will make it like new, just so there isn't a problem at the coupler thing at the transmission.

[KellyC]

Yes Dan, mine is guards red, its getting its clutch replaced, everything else on it seems pretty kosher. Its completely stock, but I have chips, MAF and a K-27-8 sitting in a box in the garage.

So if you want to compare, go on ahead... I'll PM you my contact information.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Matt -
Took your advice and ordered the new parts from our host. Could you post a picture or two or your boost gage connections to the KLR? I've got to admit my ignorance, I have no idea where/what the KLR looks like to make the connections you cited in the other thread!

Kelly,
Spent some time standing under your car last night. Leo had the clutch in/mostly re-assembled by about 4:00. I picked up that my car is missing the starter heat shield. I could also see I am missing the hanger from the torque tube to the turbo piping. Could not get a part number though, anyone? My "new" (used) piping is tightly installed, but I will order/install this hanger anyway, just want to get her back stock and running right. By the way, what year is yours?

Last, suddenly both windows are not operating. Checked the fuse, its fine. Since they had both been working (I think!) and both are not, I guess the relay. This should be a Pep Boys item, right?

BIggest things - still have to get the cooling fans working and water pumping through the turbo. I am not driving it until these are both resolved. Following the diagnostics on Clarks Garage to figure it out. any/all advice on those two is appreciated.

[KellyC]

The fan likely is a thermoswitch.

I think as long as the main waterpump off the pulley is running you should be getting coolant flowing through the turbo. The small electric pump is used only once the car is shut off. You can just idle the car for a minute or two with the heater at full blast to get rid of allot of heat before you shut off. Even then some coolant will circulate due to convection.

As for the heat shields, there are allot of extraneous flaps of metal under the car, they have a tendency to rattle if the bolts aren't tight.

My car is an 86, with a two-piece cross-over pipe. 100k miles.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Kelly,
"The fan is likely a thermoswitch"...agreed provided it is hooked up at all! With the oil pressure sending unit not connected, I have no confidence that anything is properly connected. This is why I want to do a "sanity check", my car against a properly running stock 951 like yours. Only way to do it is a side-by-side comparison as far as I am concerned because I don't know 951's.

Yeah, Duran says I probably don't need that heat shield, but I will get it anyway.

Do you know where the "...small electric pump" is located? I'm sure its there, but given the wastegate fiasco I will check, of course.
I'm not comfortable with "running the car for two minutes with the heater on prior to shut down". Its fine for a very minimal time until I can fix the electric pump properly - I'm sure that's what you meant. I want this car to be as reliable as new...well, at least close! and I don't need to pay for another turbocharger!

Haven't received your PM. Let's get together and compare notes at some point, Dan

[KellyC]

The small turbo water pump is located (buried) under the heatshield between the turbo and master brake cyclinder. Getting to it is a PITA as it is tight in there... also the hoses around the pump usually get cooked pretty good due to the heat, there is an expensive one that runs from the coolant resevoir to pump with a molded Y thats pretty expensive to replace as well.

The thermoswitch I think is available at NAPA... should be easy to find.

The pump runs only when the car is shut off for 30 seconds, the coolant will flow naturally through convection. I have a turbo Volvo without a helper pump, it still is on the orginal turbo and runs great. I think the turbo waterpump was just Porsche's way of making up (by over engineering) for the early 930 turbos that were only oil-cooled lasting 30k miles.

I just sent my info over, maybe we can take a look at it this weekend...

[Dan in Pasadena]

Yeah, that sounds about right, buried in there and expensive hoses when you do get to them! My luck of course. Oh well, I am taking it back to Duran next week and once on the lift, it should be easier to see if everything is there and connected.

I had a '95 Volvo 850T and I think it was new enough that it had a post shut down coolant pump, not sure. I know some said they had problems with "coking" of the oil on earlier Volvos (740's and 9(?)20's). That was the problem on the 930's. Are you running synthetic? I have not been on the NA, but thinking of going there on the 951. Your car was pretty dry underneath. Leakage looked minimal except on the trans cooler loops - but mine is worse right now until I clean it. Okay, call you later. Thanks everyone, I'll post some pix later, Dan

[onewhippedpuppy]

Dan, it's about dark here, I'll try to make time for pics tomorrow. The KLR is in the passenger side footwell, pull back the carpet and pull the four bolts that hold on the cover, then you'll be able to see the milky white colored hose that you need to tap into. Your easiest bet for the electrical is the ashtray light, just tap into one of the + wires. Make sure you check the fan relay too, it's another possible reason for your cooling fans not working.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Matt,
So, the KLR is in the same place where the DME is on my NA?! ..and your reference about picking up electrical off the ashtray light is for night lightng of the turbo gage, right?

Use a standard T fitting? Meaning cut that milky white hose, install a T and then connect the third leg of that T to the turbo gage, right? Isn't there a second, or some type of "return" line? Or am I over thinking this?

Noticed in the other thread you mentioned finding the parts at Ace Hardware. Were you kidding or did you use the small black plastic fittings they sell for things like home drip irrigation systems? Sorry if thats a lame question but those type of T's were the first ones that occurred to me when you said "Ace".

Excellent point about the cooling fan relay! I'll go over to Pep Boys or NAPA and get one as well as one for the power windows (fingers crossed) ...could it possibly be that easy...and cheap!!!

[onewhippedpuppy]

Dan, I used a spare rubber tee, the kind used under the hood, that the hard plastic lines fit into. Both ends of the KLR line go into the tee, then I tied in my tubing for the boost gauge. I couldn't find the same kind of hard plastic line, so I ended up gettting 1/8I.D. tubing, and using a barbed coupler to tie it into my rubber tee. I'm sure there's nicer ways of doing it, but it gets the job done. There's only one tube to the KLR, it's just for the KLR to know the boost pressure. The ash tray light is for the gauge light, it's nice because it's close, and only active when you have the lights on. Here's a good Rennlist thread, has some other ways of doing it, hope this helps.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=203326&highlight=boost+gauge