N/A'ing my Turbo; LS1 conversion project

[will944]

Looks fantastic!

[Morefun]

Great thread! Looking forward to seeing it at the track!

[Techno Duck]

250 miles on the car so far and it's been running well, but not without its issues. A few oil leaks from the AN hoses, wiring issues that lead to a toasted cooling fan.

The major issue I am having is with the clutch disengagement causing difficulty getting it into 1st and reverse from a stop. After much troubleshooting, I believe the clutch is not fully disengaging. The issue likely being the clutch disc hub pressing on the pilot bearing. This was an issue with some early Spec conversion discs and looks like I might have one of them.

Hope to have this sorted out in a few weeks.

As of now I should be home for Hersey and plan to make the trip out with it.

Overall it drives really well and I am quite happy with it. The car is deceptively fast because I'm so used to the turbo lag with it. I've only gone half throttle with it once up to 5k and it's damn fast! Still breaking in the clutch and it's in the 20's so I've been pretty easy on it still.

Drivability is good but it's not perfect. I want to get around 500 miles on it before I have it tuned. The main gripes being 12mpg mixed and a high idle that hunts around before settling. I only have a base tune on it right now for the larger injectors so this is to be expected due to the intake changes, cam and exhaust.

[xschop]

As with any swap there is a learning curve. Having completed an 944 LS and a 928 LS swap, the most critical area is the clutch setup. The lucky ones (hybriders) stumble upon the clutch dos and donts before they get started. The clutch disc and throw out bearing adjustment, if using aftermarket,has to be addressed. The rest is easy to adjust/tweek on the fly.
Once any small bugs are worked out and a good tune is done, you realize what mediocre performance the Pcar once was.

[Lapkritis]

Looks fantastic - I hope to make Hershey to unload some of my spare parts and would enjoy checking this out in person.

Just curious, did this swap crest $50k in cost? Another forum member here is throwing around what seem to be ever increasing dollar values for modifications/swaps. Noting here in this thread he claimed $30k... seems like trolling if I've ever seen it.

[Techno Duck]

The cost of my swap was less than half the $50k made up number and i spared little expense. Realistically, i think an LS swap can be done in the area of $10-15k. $10k for a bare bones, no frills swap, $15k for one well equipped with boosted brakes. This includes labor. I would say $20k is easy depending who you are paying for labor and if you go all out on the motor build or not.

As for the car, its running great. I have a little under 700 miles on it so far. The clutch issues actually ended up being transmission issues, long story but mostly related to how long the car sat. Put in a spare AOR box i kept as a spare, so the car shifts great now. Ive done two auto-x events with the car so far and have been 100% satisfied in the feel and performance of the car. It is extremely capable and if anything the car feels even more nimble now with the engine response, no more sluggish turbo.

Most of the teething issues have been worked out. To my surprise none of the issues i had were really related to the swap, all were either lack of attention to detail or just straight up poor workmanship. I think i mentioned earlier i was not too happy with a few things the shop that finished up the car did. My usual goto shop were a big help sorting some of the things out and i spent a few weeks on it myself also. There are still a few things that need to be addressed which i hope to work out over the spring. Ive started cutting out all the unused wiring under the hood, still have one more bundle of wires to go. All of the wiring along the firewall still needs to be organized a little once i finish cutting out all the unused stuff. Still battling some oil leaks from the AN hoses which i think is a result of cheap fittings and damaged seats on the AN fittings due to overtightening (part of the issues with the shop that finished up the car). I have a rather expensive box of Aeroquip fittings and hose sitting at the house. Ill be redoing all the lines in a few weeks when i get back home.

As long as the weather is good i will be at Hershey with it. Really looking forward to making the drive out.

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by Techno Duck

The cost of my swap was less than half the $50k made up number and i spared little expense. Realistically, i think an LS swap can be done in the area of $10-15k. $10k for a bare bones, no frills swap, $15k for one well equipped with boosted brakes. This includes labor. I would say $20k is easy depending who you are paying for labor and if you go all out on the motor build or not.

Thanks for sharing. It will certainly help guide other folks to see and hear a first hand experience. Curious how much is labor or if you can tell from your records. Would be good for the full DIY folks who are looking for an exhaustive list of parts and any "gotcha" areas or costs.

[haroldina]

Originally Posted by Lapkritis

Thanks for sharing. It will certainly help guide other folks to see and hear a first hand experience. Curious how much is labor or if you can tell from your records. Would be good for the full DIY folks who are looking for an exhaustive list of parts and any "gotcha" areas or costs.

I should probably go through my swap and come up with some of that stuff. Mine was completely DIY with an engine pretty much nobody uses. It took us about 2 years to do, but we came in under $2000 for the swap and we were only working 1 day a week with a 6-month break in the middle.

The time and money spent on a complete DIY, no kit parts swap is going to vary wildly depending on the person's resources and abilities. A swap using a kit is going to be a lot easier to come up with a smaller price range for.

[Techno Duck]

Thinking about it a little more, i think realistically $15k-20k is a good estimate for a clean LSx swap with power brakes. This includes labor. $10k would be something like a non boosted brake setup with a 5.3L Vortec or iron block motor. Just note, the 5.3L is essentially the same block as the LS1 with smaller displacement, they use the same heads, cam and a number of other parts. GM produced thousands of these motors over a long period so they are easy to find also.

Here is i think a better idea on how to price a project like this. All this info is subjective because everyone has different ideas on the finished project. Now this is speaking in the confines that you are paying someone to do the labor.

I would factor in somewhere between $6-10k labor which really depends where you bring it and what kind of experience they have doing this type of swap; like all projects like this there is a learning curve. And with that said, how much information you provide them for the build can save them alot of time.

Engine costs also vary greatly, a LS1 in good condition can be had for around $3-4k. A brand new crate LS3 with GM warranty is around $5k. 5.3L Vortech motors can be had in the sub $2500 range. Just remember the F-Body accessory drive brackets are the ideal setup to fit the engine. These brackets are all relatively inexpensive and easy to find separately.

Parts specific for the swap such as the oil pan, uprights, headers and bell housing adapter (plus a number of other things) will all run around $2500. These are all the parts that most people are not able to fabricate themselves, so it saves alot of time and money. I purchased all of my conversion parts from TexasPerformanceConcepts.Com ; everything fit great also.

So after that start factoring in the cost of rebuilding the motor, boosted brake components, accessory drive parts, fittings, hose and everything else needed to complete the swap. These motors are pretty stout though. I bought mine used with 58k miles on it out of an '04 GTO that was rear ended. Parts are cheap and the motor is really easy to work on. I put in bigger cam, made some upgrades to the valve train (springs, pushrods and rocker arms), rebuilt the heads, resealed the entire motor, upgraded the timing chain, replaced the chain sprockets, installed a blue printed oil pump and a number of other things. I dont think i have more than $1500 into the entire motor build and the cam makes up about 1/3 of that cost! Have i mentioned parts are super cheap and easy to get?

Lots of variables to work within. But i think with a budget of around $7-8k in parts and $7-8k in labor is a good ball park estimate.

The engine swap isn't for everyone, i try to give my unbiased opinion unlike some people on here. This was a long and expensive process for me and i lost interest more than a few times. Was it worth it? Well even with all of the little issues i had to iron out and just 700 miles on it i think so. If i cared about resale value i would have bought a 993 and make a concourse car.

[pontifex4]

Originally Posted by Techno Duck

The engine swap isn't for everyone, i try to give my unbiased opinion unlike some people on here. This was a long and expensive process for me and i lost interest more than a few times. Was it worth it? Well even with all of the little issues i had to iron out and just 700 miles on it i think so. If i cared about resale value i would have bought a 993 and make a concourse car.

Jon, I've been waiting for a post like this, and have been in a similar situation in the last couple of years (like you, a little less time and personal shop access, so I ended up buying a 996 that placed pretty high at Parade that I'm not tempted to change) but I still would love a car roughly like your 944 is now.

Thanks for the measured look at the project. When you get back and have some time, you should do a 'final' walk through with more pictures!

[Techno Duck]

I will continue to post updates on the car periodically to let all interested parties know how the car is holding up over time. I am hoping to have the car tuned within the next 4-5 weeks when i get some time off at home, at that point ill find out what most are probably interested in which is how much power it makes.

I am also hoping to make a track day in May which will really be the true test of how the car performs.

Anyhow, i have a build thread on the 944Hybrid forum which has much more detail from over the course of the build for those interested in seeing the process. I typically will update that more often than this thread. The forum is also a great resource for the LSx swaps, many knowledgeable contributors and pretty much all the information you need to do the swaps can be found here. When i get some free time i have been meaning to come up with some posts detailing some areas of the swap such as the hydroboost and power steering setup and clutch components. Mostly just to detail the fittings used, hose routing possibilities and a general description of the parts.

Techno Duck's LS1 conversion

http://944hybrids.forumotion.com/

Also i should be at the Hershey swap meet on the 19th if any interested parties want to check the car out, i will happily answer any questions also.

[nynor]

we can't see the photos unless we sign up. just saying.

[VINMAN]

I finally got the chance to see John's car up close and personal, yesterday. I have to say, Ive seen and done a lot of engine swaps in different vehicles over the years, and his has to be one of the cleanest and best engineered ones Ive ever come across. Everything looks like it factory designed. John did an incredible job. It gave me a huge inspirational boost to go ahead and do the swap in mine.

I didn't get a chance to ride it in but, I will say. it sounds totally bad ass! It was definitely a head turner at Hershey. I wish him the best of luck with it!

.

[jsb944]

Damn... Jon I looked for you but I was there early... 7:30 till about 10am....must have missed you!

[EMBPilot]

Job well done Jon!
Hi Vinny, missed hershey this year, but hope to see both of you guys soon!

[slowcorrado]

I was also able to see the car yesterday in Hershey. It's great work and sounds like a beast!

Thanks for answering my questions, the steering wheel, and being an all around nice guy Techno Duck. :-)

[Techno Duck]

Great to meet some of you guys and appreciate the complements on the car.

Joe, surprised you couldnt find me. I was in the guards red Porsche. We got in around 9am, i stayed until about 1pm.



Drove out with a group from the MetroNY PCA and we hauled ass on the way out, car performed great the entire time. I did have some issues on the way home with the shifting again which required a pit stop at a Target parking lot off i78 to bleed the clutch hydraulics. Luckily its easy to do with the remote bleed line; no crawling under the car needed. This is a common issue with the C5 Vette also. I still have some troubleshooting to do because shifting is still problematic into reverse (nearly impossible to engage), need to check the adjustment on the linkage today.

That was kind of a sour spot, but overall the car performed awesome. No other problems over the 400 mile trip. I did get stuck in some pretty heavy traffic cutting through Manhattan on the way back. Big surprise. On 32nd street a guy yelled "REV IT!".. so i gave it a healthy application of the loud pedal which turned quite a few heads .

While in traffic the water temps were creeping up to the 200 degree range. It was mid 60's ambient so i am anticipating potential issues over the summer with extended idling in traffic. Right now it utilizes one 13" SPAL fan which moves about 2000cfm. There is currently no shrouding around the fan, so i am sure that will help immensely. The other option is to put in two smaller 11" fans which should move around 2600cfm combined. Turning on the heat full blast brought the temps right down, so i suspect either of these two options should be enough.

[matty89]

very nice projets ur finishing here ! congrats man !

[Lapkritis]

How about a video? Gratuitous throttle blips, donuts... the usual.

[Techno Duck]

Tuned earlier today.

382whp / 348tq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1eHJgcfcfk