UGH - Sway Bar Outer Bushing Replacement

[flash968]

i think you're missing the point that poly bushings are largely a waste of money. most people already know that though, and either upgrade the swaybar, or they go to delrin because it's a track car and they can live with the noise. poly has almost no performance gain over new rubber, though they do last longer in bad environments (read: poorly maintained cars), and really just serves as something to drain your wallet.

just so you don't think that i won't go there, i have some poly bushings in 2 of my cars, but only because i could get ones with grease fittings, and only because there were no rubber ones available in the sizes i needed.

if you have 3 other cars available, obviously there is no 50 mile walk, so there is no excuse not to get the car fixed properly. stop driving it until you can fix it, and drive one of the others instead.

[nutless_neo]

Originally Posted by flash968

i think you're missing the point that poly bushings are largely a waste of money. most people already know that though, and either upgrade the swaybar, or they go to delrin because it's a track car and they can live with the noise. poly has almost no performance gain over new rubber, though they do last longer in bad environments (read: poorly maintained cars), and really just serves as something to drain your wallet.

just so you don't think that i won't go there, i have some poly bushings in 2 of my cars, but only because i could get ones with grease fittings, and only because there were no rubber ones available in the sizes i needed.

if you have 3 other cars available, obviously there is no 50 mile walk, so there is no excuse not to get the car fixed properly. stop driving it until you can fix it, and drive one of the others instead.

Yes sir! I'm so sorry, for not wanting to drive another vehicle. It will never happen again. Look, I never said I wasn't going to fix my car properly and there is no reason I can't drive my car the way it is. It's only been a few days, during which all I've been trying to do is find a 14mm poly bushing. There hasn't been any difference in the way it drives without the bushing, heck I could probably take the whole damn sway bar off and not notice a difference. If I want to spend my money on poly bushings then that's my prerogative. I didn't start this thread to debate the pros and cons so I'm not missing the point of anything. This whole thread has gone way overboard. And since I couldn't get a straight answer to my question, I ordered both the poly and the rubber and I'll just have to see if the polys I ordered fit or not.

I can respect that you don't prefer poly bushings, but that's no reason to come at me like my dad and scold me for wanting to get them or for driving my car in the interim. It's my money and my car. When you're paying the bill, then I'll let you get whatever you want.

[flash968]

lol - i'm just saying that it's a bad idea to drive a car that needs repair, especially since you have others.

it sounds like the leak has been going on for some time. that is what i would be focused on. i would never drive a car with a leak of anything, knowing what other damage it can do. it's foolhardy to think that it won't cost you more money later if you don't fix it now.

if you can't feel the difference with no bushing, then poly makes even less sense.

but yes, you are welcome to throw your money away anywhere you want. i see kids do it all the time. i did it when i was young too. i bought all the "cool" little junk i could find. the guys who knew better laughed at me at the time too.

i'm not scolding you. i'm trying to give you the benefit of 30 years of car setup experience, for free. take it or not. that's your prerogative too.

[nutless_neo]

Originally Posted by flash968

lol - i'm just saying that it's a bad idea to drive a car that needs repair, especially since you have others.

it sounds like the leak has been going on for some time. that is what i would be focused on. i would never drive a car with a leak of anything, knowing what other damage it can do. it's foolhardy to think that it won't cost you more money later if you don't fix it now.

if you can't feel the difference with no bushing, then poly makes even less sense.

but yes, you are welcome to throw your money away anywhere you want. i see kids do it all the time. i did it when i was young too. i bought all the "cool" little junk i could find. the guys who knew better laughed at me at the time too.

i'm not scolding you. i'm trying to give you the benefit of 30 years of car setup experience, for free. take it or not. that's your prerogative too.

Well then we both have the same amount experience in vehicles, so I'm no kid. A lot of that experience came from one of the best car builders in the world - Bob Norwood, where I worked when I was a kid, in my 20's. We also used poly bushings there as well. Every car builder is going to have their preferences when putting their cars together. And as I said earlier in a post - I am tracking down and fixing the leak this weekend. It's not like the car is bleeding out like a stuck pig. I've been watching the oil level and there has been no significant loss of any kind, so the leak is just a mediocre dribble at most. Given that I've only had the car a few weeks, I don't think any irreparable damage has been done. From my understanding, the car sat for a long while before I bought it. The guy I got it from is a Porsche race team mechanic and did a valve job and oil change on it when he got it, I bought it from him the next day. I don't think he even knew there was a leak.

I appreciate the "advice" but just because we happen to disagree on poly vs. rubber bushings, doesn't make me some ignorant kid who just wants red shiny things on his suspension. Neither does driving a car with a small leak make me completely irresponsible and negligent or mean that I'm not going to fix it.

[flash968]

it's not a preference for me. it's based purely on data. the deflection resistance of a poly swaybar bushing on these cars is barely better than rubber. there just isn't enough material there to make that much of a difference. they just last longer, which is why setup guys select them. rubber requires more inspection before each race. that is enough justification for poly, but performance is not. that just comes down to wanting to spend money. that's fine. i do plenty of that. i've spent over $150k on the blue 968. i don't think anybody would disagree that it is a personal choice, and one that is in no way logical.

as for the leak, a power steering leak, which is incredibly common in these cars, can easily ruin every bushing in the suspension, particularly on the driver side, in a matter of weeks. 1 out of 3 of these cars that rolls through here has bad bushings on the driver side, due entirely to that leak. another 1 out of 3 has had to replace them because of a bad leak. that's not a good statistic. replacing the front lower control arm bushings is incredibly difficult and time consuming. replacing the caster block isn't particularly time consuming, but requires an alignment afterward.

that is why i would not drive it with a leak.

but, do what you want. it's your car.

[nutless_neo]

Granted, this is my first Porsche and we mainly only dealt with 911s whenever we had a Porsche in the shop - so I can actually agree with you that poly bushings most likelt wont help much with the overall performance of the swaybar simply because of how the swaybar is setup on the 944 and given that I haven't even noticed any loss of performance with the bushing gone. But since I got got both rubber and poly, I think I'm covered. As for the oil leak, as noted earlier, its on the passenger side and has only affected the outer swaybar bushing. The inner swaybar busging has been spared any discharge. The A arm bushing happens to already be a poly upgrade. So I'm not so concerned about that one.

[flash968]

lol - yeah - not many leaks up front in a 911.

yup - i'm betting your leak is power steering. that's where it always tears things up. i've never even heard of a poly control arm bushing for these cars. OEM rubber or spherical bearing only. i'd love to see a shot of that, and would be very interested to know who makes it. the OEM bushings are a complicated 2 piece bonded unit with metal sleeve and plates, and a royal pain in the butt to get out of there. i am almost positive there is no poly caster block.

[nutless_neo]

Originally Posted by flash968

lol - yeah - not many leaks up front in a 911.

yup - i'm betting your leak is power steering. that's where it always tears things up. i've never even heard of a poly control arm bushing for these cars. OEM rubber or spherical bearing only. i'd love to see a shot of that, and would be very interested to know who makes it. the OEM bushings are a complicated 2 piece bonded unit with metal sleeve and plates, and a royal pain in the butt to get out of there. i am almost positive there is no poly caster block.

It's definitely an oil leak, I just can't place it. it looks like it's coming from the oil filter area but i don't think it's the oil filter. I'm going to clean the entire area this weekend and try and trace it down. I'll get you a picture of the bushing. I wouldn't have a clue who makes it as the previous owner put it on.

[Gawernator]

My suggestion. Look at the oil pressure sender, could be leaking slowly from there. Right under the oil filter.

[nutless_neo]

Originally Posted by Gawernator

My suggestion. Look at the oil pressure sender, could be leaking slowly from there. Right under the oil filter.

Okay, thanks, I'll start there then after i clean everything off.

[jcommin]

I got an 83 and I upgraded the stock sway bar with one that came out of a 951. I think this is an easy upgrade. Bushings are inexpensive. Patience!

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by flash968

lol - yeah - not many leaks up front in a 911.

yup - i'm betting your leak is power steering. that's where it always tears things up. i've never even heard of a poly control arm bushing for these cars. OEM rubber or spherical bearing only. i'd love to see a shot of that, and would be very interested to know who makes it. the OEM bushings are a complicated 2 piece bonded unit with metal sleeve and plates, and a royal pain in the butt to get out of there. i am almost positive there is no poly caster block.

Flash is correct - this PS unit leaks and destroys the sway bar bushing.

[9FF]

lol - yeah - not many leaks up front in a 911.



yup - i'm betting your leak is power steering. that's where it always tears things up. i've never even heard of a poly control arm bushing for these cars. OEM rubber or spherical bearing only. i'd love to see a shot of that, and would be very interested to know who makes it. the OEM bushings are a complicated 2 piece bonded unit with metal sleeve and plates, and a royal pain in the butt to get out of there. i am almost positive there is no poly caster block.

I normally agree with you flash but I've got Powerflex Poly bushes throughout on one of my cars and they are quite an improvement over stock. They don't squeak and I've never applied grease after fitting them. The major advantage is they don't swell up if you get oil on them like rubber does, you just wipe any oil off and they are as good as new. You can get replacement Powerflex poly for almost every rubber bush on our car and the prices are not that expensive. The sleeves they use are stainless also which is a plus to the steel bushes used by the factory. They do lots of sway bar sizes even the 30mm 968 M030 size. Really, they are good despite what you may have heard.

http://store.powerflexusa.com/porsche-944-s2-1985---1991-urethane-bushings-p1241.aspx

No affiliation, just my experience.

[flash968]

i would argue that the improvement you felt was over BAD stock, not new. you can't argue the physics. too often people try to compare old soggy rubber to new poly.

let's talk apples and apples. the difference is minute.

but here is no arguing the resilience to chemicals. poly wins out there every time.