Another Small Block Conversion Argument

[harborman]

It had the Ford 351 and German ZF trans. Car made in Torino, Italy and sold here by Lincoln Mercury from 70 to 74. About 50k made and sold for $14k new. I know, I had one.

Quote de MPDano

For those that put down Ford V8's "with" Carburetors. Heres a video favorite of mine. Pantera Versus Lamborghini Diablo. Guess who got smoked!



Yes, I know it's a Big Block. Would be interesting to put Kuhns TT against a 1970's Pantera.

I think Panteras had a 351 Cleveland motor, Leo. Technically a small block

[harborman]

I forgot to mention, many Panteras rusted on the boats coming here from Italy. Poor or nonextent undercoating. This resulted in structural frame problems with monococh design. If you find a good one check it out very well for rust. Not many left. too bad, great concept for exceptional car at the time. I am sorry sold mine as it was clean, no rust.

[Herr-Kuhn]

The Pantera is a nice car...the engine bay is huge. I think it would be nice to take a newer, modern, 5.4 liter 4-cam Ford V8 and put TT on it in the back of the Pantera. That would be retro-cool and you could make 600+ HP with ease.

[Herr-Kuhn]

My parents had a Gran Torino station wagon with the 351 Cleveland in it. My brother used to take it out and do burn-outs in it and nearly put it over a cliff at age 14. I was riding shotgun.

[fb111]

I'd have to say that Pantera's are not much more than a kit car. Rear wheel bearing failure, half shafts, MGB wiper motor on a windshield the size of a Ferrari Testarossa. Overheating, an a/c system that hardly works. The front suspension and steering rack the size of a 4 cylinder import. The list goes on and on. But they do look good and sound great.

[MPDano]

Originally Posted by Herr-Kuhn

My parents had a Gran Torino station wagon with the 351 Cleveland in it. My brother used to take it out and do burn-outs in it and nearly put it over a cliff at age 14. I was riding shotgun.

Damn dude. I am totally picturing that too. Which side almost went over the cliff?

I had an old Cougar with a 302 that used to do some killer burnouts in. I ended up junking the car and taking the 302 and put that in my old Triumph TR7 and built it up with a lopey cam and some serious Holleys. Friggin did a 720 and ended up on the center divider in from of the college I was going to, racing some punk with a new Trans Am. Sold the TR7 a week later. The dumbass things we do as Teens. Priceless

[MPDano]

Originally Posted by fb111

...But they do look good and sound great.

Yes and Yes it does. The lopey idle gives me a woody every time

[fb111]

I had a small bumper 72 and it didn't sound anything like yours. I bought 70 boss 302 heads for it and all the stuff to make it a solid lifter higher compression engine but sold it and got into something else. I had used mine as a daily driver so you can get an idea of how long ago it was.

[harborman]

Mine never over heated and ran pretty good. I had it when I lived in Vail and there was a good shop in Aurora at the time. I had him lower the suspension to original design. It was not a "kit car", by any means. It was way ahead of it's time! Like any sports car it required attention. I am very sorry I sold it, but I love my 928S. I think a good Pantera goes for $80K today, if you can find a good one.

I'd have to say that Pantera's are not much more than a kit car. Rear wheel bearing failure, half shafts, MGB wiper motor on a windshield the size of a Ferrari Testarossa. Overheating, an a/c system that hardly works. The front suspension and steering rack the size of a 4 cylinder import. The list goes on and on. But they do look good and sound great.

[fb111]

I suspect Colorado a little cooler then Phila. in the summer. Mine blew the temperature sensor right out of the radiator. I must have replaced at least three of the tiny lucas windshield wiper motors. I don't get the head of its ahead of itstime idea. There was nothing innovative about the car. Same concept as the Iso Grifo, Cobra, Jensen Interceptor. Take a european car and stuff a big american V8 in it.

[Landseer]

Today I drove a 48K mile one-owner 951. WANT.

[Herr-Kuhn]

From SBC to Lucas...this is going downhill fast

[Danglerb]

SoCal is Panteraland, Mayberry Lincoln Mercury loved the things from day one and promoted and sold a LOAD of them new and for many years always had one or two for sale used. I worked for a few years down the street from Lance Nist Pantera Specialists, and later on lived a few houses away from Don Peak (former pres of POA) who owned a 200k mile daily driver.

Pantera's are wicked fast cars, brutal like a Viper and bare, but how do you argue with the out of the box level of performance?

Unfortunately a Pantera is not a car for the tall and big.

[Normy]

Small block conversions are typically more expensive than rebuilds, in my opinion.

A Devek 6.4 liter engine used to cost upwards of $25,000. That is a nice 500 hp engine, but supercharged 5.0 4-valve motors can achieve that number [though with reduced reliability] for 1/3 that price.

Renegade Hybrids sells a kit that allows you to mount a chevrolet small-block V8 engine in the place of our original Porsche M28 motor. They tout the conversion as being lighter- but that is only the case if you mount an aluminum block chevy motor. A standard iron-block chevrolet small-block 5.7 liter engine weighs about the same as the big block Porsche engine. The chevrolet engine is smaller, but it uses a high-mounted alternator that interferes with the strut tower brace on our cars.

What's more, the Renegade Hybrids kit is incomplete- I was told that you have to find a part from the top of the bellhousing from some odd 1960's car in a junkyard in order to make this conversion work.

Don't get me wrong- I'm a 928 purist, but I would MUCH rather see a 928 contaminated with gm parts than parked or crushed. And I've been told that the 928's with the chevy engine drive exactly the same, sound the same, and have the same power and performance of the original engine.

Rob Budd up in Michigan has one; I took pictures of his car in 2003.

N!

[Normy]

Rob Budd's car:

N!



He sells hood liners. Classic 9 Leather Shop Porsche Interior Restoration Automobile Reupholstery Craftsman Great guy!

N!

[sonett3]

Originally Posted by Herr-Kuhn

My parents had a Gran Torino station wagon with the 351 Cleveland in it. My brother used to take it out and do burn-outs in it and nearly put it over a cliff at age 14. I was riding shotgun.

Yes I had fun doing that . But not the part nearly putting use over the cliff. Dum a-- me

[fb111]

Aspkiller on Rennlist has a 91GT that is running an LS7. He is out on the west coast. The car is built for racing and he is selling a wide body kit and front spoiler for the later cars. It is a very nicely done car. The engine has been tweeked and I think it has also been dry sumped.

[Herr-Kuhn]

Originally Posted by sonett3

Yes I had fun doing that . But not the part nearly putting use over the cliff. Dum a-- me

Yes, and then you demanded that I help you redistribute all the scattered gravel in the driveway from the skid marks you left as a result of that little stunt-1977

Other episodes included:

You smashing the front of Dad's Sonett III into the garage door whilst moving the Datsun B210-1980

You seen by the neighbors driving like a maniac at the tri-angular intersection of Boston Post Road and Thorten's Ferry II road in the 1980 Olds Cutlass Supreme. Back then is WAS your father's oldsmobile-1982

and the best one ever...

You taking said Oldsmobile out whilst chasing skirt...only to find out that after you raced up the back road behind the house that dad was waiting for you in the driveway. I can still remember it vividly "You're going to have a lot of explaining to do in the morning"-1982

Nobody ever found out, but I nearly burned down the house in 1985 as a result of playing with gasoline beside the garage. The difference was that *itch lady nextdoor, Mrs. Condon loved me and she hated you. Well, except for the time we scared the daylights out of their baby-sitter and they had to come home early...TOTALLY stumbling drunk wasted. She then accused me of setting that fire up in the woods...her kids had actually done it. I think I had it out with her around 1986 after she caught us burning things in the middle of the road and she chased us with her Volvo wagon.

Such a colourful childhood...

[harborman]

I am 6'3" and felt comfortable driving my Pantera. It certainly has the looks, even today like a 928. You could remove the trunk and get to the engine and ZF quite easily, also a cover came off between the seats to access the belts. I had the "L" model. It was mid engine. They all came with the 5 speed stick. As I mentioned, mine never had heating problems and was driven in summers in Chicago and Denver. It also came with Campagnola mag wheels.

SoCal is Panteraland, Mayberry Lincoln Mercury loved the things from day one and promoted and sold a LOAD of them new and for many years always had one or two for sale used. I worked for a few years down the street from Lance Nist Pantera Specialists, and later on lived a few houses away from Don Peak (former pres of POA) who owned a 200k mile daily driver.



Pantera's are wicked fast cars, brutal like a Viper and bare, but how do you argue with the out of the box level of performance?



Unfortunately a Pantera is not a car for the tall and big.

[Herr-Kuhn]

Originally Posted by fb111

Aspkiller on Rennlist has a 91GT that is running an LS7. He is out on the west coast. The car is built for racing and he is selling a wide body kit and front spoiler for the later cars. It is a very nicely done car. The engine has been tweeked and I think it has also been dry sumped.

I have no doubts a converted car can be wickedly fast if done up right. It is just to this point nobody has ever shared the total parts cost or disclosed the time involved to pull it off correctly. I don;t discount that the SBC is indeed a good engine, clearly it is.

I've seen Bob's car a few times and it looks like he did a very nice job on it. But his case is different, he pulled a 4.5 liter, not a 5.0 32V engine. Clearly, the conversion on that platform allows you to increase the performance into the 350 HP range for a reasonable amount when compared to boosting the 4.5 to the same levels. I'm not sure it's cheaper, but if you have a spent 4.5 I can see the merits. Pulling a perfect 32V to go SBC is a whole different situation in my opinion.

I guess my beef is that the 32V engine is just such a wonderful platform and has so much untapped potential that I don't see the sense in chucking it when you can bolt on some nice stuff and have a wickldly fast Porsche Super Car for less than $35K.

Additionally, some of the comments from the conversion people are downright crazy and in a lot of cases outright lies. I mean look at the original post on here and you can see someone claiming to be able to build a 600 HP small block from junkyard parts that only turns 6,000 RPM. That's a simple CFM calculation folks and the claim holds no validity whatsoever. I think that guy played Candyland one too many times in the 1980s.