Another Small Block Conversion Argument

[fb111]

Do a search on rennlist for aspkiller. He has a warmed over LS7 in a 91GT that has a kevlar body kit and all sorts of track mods done to it.

[ubercooper]

Cool, got dyno sheets ? or... So you drive on the track? What class? Where? How does the car place?

no dyno yet as the car is still in the works (welding in cage), but the sister motor to this dynoed at 460wrhp, 490rwtq without proper exhaust... It will run in either NASA or SCCA unlimited class, with much prettier and expensive cars

So, its like buying and sorting 2 928's.

yeah maybe you can tie them together to make them faster?

Do a search on rennlist for aspkiller. He has a warmed over LS7 in a 91GT that has a kevlar body kit and all sorts of track mods done to it.

That car gives me a all sorts of wood, please do yourself a favor and have some tissues ready when you check it out... pics are on renegade hybrids website

[rich]

Originally Posted by ubercooper

no dyno yet as the car is still in the works (welding in cage), but the sister motor to this dynoed at 460wrhp, 490rwtq without proper exhaust... It will run in either NASA or SCCA unlimited class, with much prettier and expensive cars



yeah maybe you can tie them together to make them faster?



That car gives me a all sorts of wood, please do yourself a favor and have some tissues ready when you check it out... pics are on renegade hybrids website

Ok, so no real numbers on your engine right? I still don't get it. Why would you go through all the time and money to install a chevy in a 928? What is the attraction to the 928 for you? It's clear it's not the engine. I mean you really are not building a Porsche right? Is the chassis that much better that you couldn't just use a camero? And for the money, time, and work it takes to do it you could have a Corvette.

So when you race do you register the car as a Porvette or a Chevsche (chev-A) or... Maybe a Chorsche (chore-sha) I'm not trying to be a smart ass I just don't get the mix when Chevy makes a 4 passenger fastback sport car with the same V8 engine you are trying to install in the 928.

[Landseer]

I guess its the budget way to procure a close-to-race chassis.
As rollers, they are basically free. Suspension upgrades are available.
Late model vette for little money.

[Jon B.]

^^^Late model Corvettes (C5) are already REALLY cheap.

[Normy]

Originally Posted by SolReaver

Normy: engine transplants IMHO are not that simple. They don't pop in and out like legos.

Yeah- that's what I said too. You'll note how I pointed out several times that the one kit to fit the gm engine to the Porsche car is missing an important bellhousing part.

I said it could be done on a temporary basis; I never said it was easy-

N!

[Landseer]

So here are some of the cost issues when trying to fix a 928 engine used for racing --- I guess it really makes the chevrolet option come squarely onto the radar screen.

Back to square one with the GTS race motor. Arghhh! Help needed... - Rennlist Discussion Forums

[rich]

Originally Posted by Landseer

So here are some of the cost issues when trying to fix a 928 engine used for racing --- I guess it really makes the chevrolet option come squarely onto the radar screen.

Back to square one with the GTS race motor. Arghhh! Help needed... - Rennlist Discussion Forums

Ya, well I get that, but why not just race a Camaro then? If your going to just settle for a chevy engine why not just give in and settle for the package and be done with it. I mean my point is if your not using a Porsche engine then your not racing a Porsche your racing a Chevy powered body that everyone knows is not all Porsche anyway. It's kind of an exibition in defeat if you ask me. It's like, Porsche engines are too complicated for me. I'm not a good enough mechanic to make my Porsche competitive so I threw in the towel and just settled for the chevy.

Why do you think I installed a 928 Porsche engine in my 914 Porsche? There are lots of guys running a chevy in these cars. Several kit companies out there. Renegade, Red Dog, Kennedy makes flywheels and adaptor plates, and others I forgot.

Because first it's a bi#ch!n in V8 engine! It's big, it has a cool look no chevy can achive, it's fuel injected with the wildest intake I've ever seen. Need I say more? Second, because everyone told me it couldn't be done. Ah, just bolt in the chevy, all the cool kids are doing it.

When I finished the car for the first time in 2004 I had 10 miles on the car and took off for the west coast. I stopped in Vegas and drove over to the Renagade shop and met with Scott. He looked at my car and said "you know I need to ask the question right?" I said what? He said, "why" when you could have a Chevy engine? I said, because I have a Porsche.

I wrecked three engines due to broken cams and currently have an issue with flicking oil pressure. Do you think I should throw in the towel and just do the easy thing and settle for the chevy?

A major part of why I'm interested in building stuff is the challenge. The Porsche 928 engine is the most challanging engine I have ever worked on. I used to drag race back in the day. I had a 66 chevelle with a 427 c.i. BB in the 11's. The chevy was a natual progression for me when I wanted more power in my 914. But where's the challenge in that? I have now worked my way through the frustration of building 4 engines and now have a 5.0 hybrid. Who knows where this journey will take me. But I tell you what. Where ever it takes me it will be powered by Porsche.

[Landseer]

Ever worked on a camaro?
What a tin-can crap mess.

I think that's why the 928 is so desireable. Cheap race platform.

I agree about the 928 engine. We have 5 running. Always looking for more. Its more interesting to me than the body/frame. Someday I'll have one exposed in a 32 coupe or something similar for the HAMB guys to contemplate. (they are traditional hotrodders / flat head ford / merc or caddy, else nailhead buick).


]

[rich]

I'm a car guy not just a Porsche guy. I have a 29 ford roadster project in the storage garage waiting on parts. Just scored a 37 ford front axle over the weekend for it. 348 with a truck 4 speed. I hang out on the HAMB also. Oh, BTW the 32 Ford roadster with 928 power has been done. I have it in a hot rod mag someplace around here. They used down draw webers in place of the spyder.

[ubercooper]

I wrecked three engines due to broken cams and currently have an issue with flicking oil pressure. Do you think I should throw in the towel and just do the easy thing and settle for the chevy?

Um... Yeah, maybe its a sign trying to tell you to stop throwing money down the drain on crap motors that break all the time.

The 928 engine was never designed for racing, american v8s were designed from day 1 to throw out absurd amounts of power and get the **** beaten out of them day in and day out

Ya, well I get that, but why not just race a Camaro then?

Have you ever driven one of those things? If so, think about how it felt and answer that yourself...

If my bed had wheels and could get drunk it would handle like that.

the 928 chassis is better than a camaro or American "sports car".. They did many a road test back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and every one said the 928 chassis was by far the best.

Its very simple .... take 1 part brilliant chassis+suspension+transaxle. Take away stock, flawed, engine...then replace with race motor from a 10 sec drag car and there you go

last point; how much are parts for your precious Porsche motor? How much are those cams, pistons, and heads?

case and point: $1100 for a belt tensioner?

I hope you are rich because you can keep your expensive time bomb of a motor

928 International-Belt Tensioner 85-95

[Landseer]

Those are free between enthusiasts.
You can buy a whole car for that.
Same for most other parts.

[fb111]

Using Rich's logic we would never have experienced a Shelby Cobra, Griffith, and dam near every Lotus ever made comes with an engine from a different marque. I guess it nixes Mangustas, Pantera's and a littany of small Italian coach builders from the 60's that used the Chevy v8. Iso Grifo, Iso Rivolta, and Jensen Interceptors just to name a few.

[rich]

Originally Posted by fb111

Using Rich's logic we would never have experienced a Shelby Cobra, Griffith, and dam near every Lotus ever made comes with an engine from a different marque. I guess it nixes Mangustas, Pantera's and a littany of small Italian coach builders from the 60's that used the Chevy v8. Iso Grifo, Iso Rivolta, and Jensen Interceptors just to name a few.

One remarque-able difference.... Those cars never had a V8 engine.

[Landseer]

One thing is for sure.

I don't have the skills to do a conversion.

[fb111]

Most of them never had their own engine but were designed for the US V8. The exception is certainly the Cobra and Griffith.

[Normy]

Originally Posted by ubercooper

Um... Yeah, maybe its a sign trying to tell you to stop throwing money down the drain on crap motors that break all the time.

The 928 engine was never designed for racing, american v8s were designed from day 1 to throw out absurd amounts of power and get the **** beaten out of them day in and day out



Have you ever driven one of those things? If so, think about how it felt and answer that yourself...

If my bed had wheels and could get drunk it would handle like that.

the 928 chassis is better than a camaro or American "sports car".. They did many a road test back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and every one said the 928 chassis was by far the best.

Its very simple .... take 1 part brilliant chassis+suspension+transaxle. Take away stock, flawed, engine...then replace with race motor from a 10 sec drag car and there you go

last point; how much are parts for your precious Porsche motor? How much are those cams, pistons, and heads?

case and point: $1100 for a belt tensioner?

I hope you are rich because you can keep your expensive time bomb of a motor

928 International-Belt Tensioner 85-95

I disagree.

Porsche went down several odd roads when they developed the M28 engine- gilmer belt overhead cams, belt driven oil pump....aluminum barrels with NO steel liner running with aluminum pistons. We don't know WHY the M28 engine is actually a big-block; Porsche won't admit to why the bore centers are 122 mm apart. This 273, 286, 302, and 329 cubic inch engine shares almost the SAME bore centers as a Chrysler 426 hemi/440 Dodge and the 427/454 chevy block. Go out to your garage and measure it- You can do it "pidgin" by measuring the spark plugs. The Porsche M28 engine is a big block.

(If you don't believe me contact Arias; a few years ago they mounted 4-valve M28 heads to a chevy big block engine via a custom crank with a DOHC belt drive section)

Thick aluminum bores were probably built so that Porsche could get away from steel liners. Another idea is that they wanted to take this engine racing, specifically Indianapolis, where the regulating body back around 1972 was talking about changing the regs to require a stock street engine block with 2.65 liter capacity. Hello! Lots of cooling capacity, and generous bearing area to handle sustained 10,000 rpm engine speeds....

That's me just ruminating. But if you look at the design, you see either HUGE room for growth [Porsche used the drivers' side of this engine to produce a 16 valve 3.0 liter 240 hp design for the 968, which would easily transfer to a 6.0 liter V8 of 480 hp for the proposed but never built '96 928 GTR], or it was the beginning of a race engine that wasn't developed.

N

[ubercooper]

Norm, I couldnt agree with you more.

The stock motor has enormous potential, and Porsche were being subborn bastards when they decided to crop the 928 development... especially with a theoretical 10krpm redline and the most advanced tech they had at the time.

however, unless you have a godawful amount of money (or your 928 MS) , potential is all that motor will ever have. Yes you can throw a blower on it but it is a colossal project to get that motor where it should be for racing.

[not_hans_stuck]

I'm in a firestarter kindofa mood so here goes.

I'll play your game. I'm in the beginning stages of doing a LS1 911 but what I really want is an LS7 928. I have to finish this project first, though.

You can visit my thread below to see that I'm what you might refer to these days as a semi-professional home shop mechanic. I've owned shops and done the work myself.

When I worked for Porsche in Germany in the 80's my company car was a 928S4. I love 928's. Looovvvveee 928's. OK. We've established that.

One last thing. I've never done an LSx conversion on a 928 so bear that in mind. Also, you be nice and I'll be nice. Boxers to your corners, let's keep it fair and fun.


I just went to the Renegade Hybrids website and the grand total for every last part they make to convert a 928 is $6649. Throw in shipping and stuff you forgot, let's call it $7,000.

I then went to the GM Performance parts catalog. An LS-3 EROD motor is listed at $7600 by the dealer at the top of the show dealer pricing tab.

That's $14,600.

What did we forget. How about exhaust. Let's assume the stock EROD manifolds won't fit and I have to have my guy come build me custom manifolds. I'll tell him to use u-bends in mild steel and he'll tig it in my garage on the floor. He's likely to charge me about $1500 - at least that's the estimate he gave me for the 911, anyway.

I also believe you have to do custom work to the oil pan. Let's call that another $1000 (I'd rather error high than low).

So that's $17,100.

I'll do all the labor myself. It's still a hobby for me so I can do that. The E-ROD will return 25+ MPG, 430HP and 424FT-LBs of torque.

That's all I got. It's a rough estimate, but it's a start. How does that compare?

No 350's, no junkyards, no carb's, no distributors - no junk.


Hal

[not_hans_stuck]

Originally Posted by Landseer

Ever worked on a camaro?
What a tin-can crap mess.

I think that's why the 928 is so desireable. Cheap race platform.

I agree about the 928 engine. We have 5 running. Always looking for more. Its more interesting to me than the body/frame. Someday I'll have one exposed in a 32 coupe or something similar for the HAMB guys to contemplate. (they are traditional hotrodders / flat head ford / merc or caddy, else nailhead buick).


]

That would be cool.

I always thought it would be cool to put a Jag V-12 in a highboy roadster. Put straight pipes on it and downdraft webers with tall intakes.