Upgrading from a 86 Carrera, which is better 993 or 964?

[godxilla2]

I currently drive an 86 Targa. I want to upgrade because i want a better daily driver. Specifically these reasons:
- i want air bags
- i dont like the noise my targa top makes
- i want better shifting

I am considering the 964, but have heard that they have more potential problems than the 993.

Do the 964s have significantly more problems typically?
Are the 993s worth the extra money?

Thanks

[Bill Verburg]

Late 964 and early 993 are peas in a pod mechanically. There are differences 5 vs 6 spd and body being the biggest. Each has it's merits, you could be happy w/ either.

[godxilla2]

any more input? any opinions?


thanks

[AFJuvat]

The 964 requires more maintenance (valve adjustments, etc..)

The 993 will cost more to fix.

All else being equal, I would go with a 993

[bigchillcar]

964 will remind you more of your carrera and is probably going to be more diy-friendly. the 964 carries a whopper of a punch..and value. i think of it like the mid-year car for the 90's. seriously. i love my new '90 C4 cab.
ryan

[aeroman]

I would follow the old audigy of buy the most Porsche you can afford. That leans towards the 993, but I can tell you I LOVE my 92 C4 CAB.

[bigchillcar]

fwiw, i was initially shopping for a 993...but i couldn't be more happy with my decision to go with a 964. down the road i will probably own a 993, but i'm way more than satisfied with my 964. i wanted a C4 and have from my research, the C4 993 is more 'performance-oriented' and the 964's system more 'weather-oriented'. as i don't track, i prefer the latter..plus the 964's awd system is strong, supposed to bullet-proof. it's the baby brother of the 959, but its abs sensors get wheel slippage info to the computer about 10x as fast as the 959's did (i think i got that value right)..
ryan
ryan

[InTheAir]

There is something special about the 993--it's styling, it being the last, etc.

However, they are both great cars.

[bigchillcar]

i ultimately agree with jeff..the 993 is the pinnacle of modern air-cooled p-cars..
ryan

[Tom W]

I see very little difference in cost to maintain the two (or the ease of DIY). The biggest differences are style (I like the 993 better) and the 5-speed in the 964 or the 6-speed in the 993. Both are starting to get to the age where you need to be paying attention to the condition of the rubber parts and replacing them.

I think the 964 is a fine car, but I like the 993 a bit better. I can't imagine that you would not be happy with either.

[ninesixfour]

All good thoughts. I will always consider a swtich to a 993 as purely cosmetic. I've driven a VR 993 and it feels the same power-wise as my 964 so don't be lured by the extra 20-30hp. 993s are beautiful cars though and if you can afford the $5-10K premium then go for it. For a lot of people, the 993 headlights are a deal-breaker...they don't bother me and I love the rear end.
Both are great cars and I would focus more on finding a great example of whichever model you choose. If your budget constrains you to high-mileage 993s then it will probably get you into a lower mileage 964. Both are old now and will be expensive to fix, just like your 86.

[Halm]

I just added a 993 to our garage to go with the SC. While the lineage is clear, they are two entirely different cars. but they are both great.

Based on what you said as criteria, you might look at a '87-'89 G50 coupe.

[Sonic dB]

My take is that it depends on your budget. If you can
swing the 993 easy with no sweating the budget,
then you should do that. Reasons why: More modern,
Better styling and handling, less major issues go wrong,
a little bit faster.

Its funny that the 964 owners say 964 and the 993
owners say 993.. lol.. but I was in the same situation
as you and went from an 86 to a 97 993 and Im quite
pleased with the situation. For a while, I owned both
at the same time, and found that I was driving the 86 less
and less, cause it was not worth the trouble (no ac, 915
tranny etc)...

The 911 did draw a ton of attention though..

[godxilla2]

Thanks for the input.

I am leaning towards finding a low mileage 964, since the low mileage 993s are out of my budget (20 - 25k). Are there better years 964s? what about 993s, are there better years?

Thanks

[bigchillcar]

964's were produced between 90-94. the 90-91 models came without gaskets between the cylinders and the heads. some leaked, some didn't. most higher-mileage cars (like mine) have had the gaskets added. also check for the vent kit for the dual dizzy belt, which protects the belt from ozone and early failure. also, you'll wanna know the condition of the dual-mass flywheel on these cars. there are lots of 90-91 cars to be found, 93-94 cars, which addressed these issues at the factory, are fewer and far between however. but, if you get a good ppi, then a 90-91 car is quite a bargain. some are calling these cars the 'middies' of the 90's. i tend to agree..great cars if properly upgraded/taken care of. just my $.02....

993's differ primarily by their disgnostics OBDI (5) vs. OBDII on the 96-97 models), plus v-ram wasn't available until 96 for an extra 20 hp i think. i believe you can chip a 95, but not the later years. i'll let a 993 owner clear that up so i don't spread misinformation.
ryan

[Sonic dB]

Read the stickys that are posted at the top of the 993 forum.

Note: My 97, with 104,000 miles does not have the CEL issue.
Its a well-maintained, very fast (low 5s) 993 Cab with a history of service records. I purchased it with 78,000 miles on the clock in late 05...and have put 26K miles on it with the only repair was switching out the valve cover gasket that had started to weep.

This is a very low maintanance car, if you find a good one.
My 86 (which I had for 3.5 years and 70K miles) was also a good one, but there were lots and lots of little
items that kept going wrong...nothing major but not quite the same as the 993s record. The less time I spend under the car the better, imo.

early 964s had cylinder head gasket issue, but most have been corrected by now

[Halm]

Originally posted by Sonic dB
Note: My 97, with 104,000 miles does not have the CEL issue. Its a well-maintained, very fast (low 5s) 993 Cab with a history of service records.

Thanks for that comment. We just bought our '96 993 and I really wrestled with the SAI issue. I ended up with a '96 based on its terrific documentation. Really glad to hear the other side of that story.

[911skb]

Drive them both and see if you feel a difference of power, "connectedness", handling, etc.

Look at them both and see which style speaks to you.

Many of the below points others have already mentioned, thought I'd share another 964 owner's opinion:

-Both of them have the 3.6, power assisted brakes & steering, both have a better A/C and heater, both feel more modern than 80's. Although I miss my '77 with no A/C and strong burnt oil smell, I do love my 964's more creature comfort atmosphere.

-964's need valve adjustments, 993's do not.

-993 (96 -98) may give you CEL problems. The '95's OBDI system did not have this issue.

-993 (96 - 98) have more HP than the 95 993, due to the Varioram. People have gotten around this with adding a performance chip to thier 95's and have about equal HP.

- 90 - 91 964's did not have a head gasket (which Ryan mentioned). Some were ok, some were not, some have had it added by now by the PO's. Check for this!

- 92 - 94 964's had the head gasket installed at the factory.

- early 964's had issues with the dual mass flywheel failing. I believe this was fixed at the factory by mid 91 or so.

- the first 964's were rolled out in '89.5 and was a C4 only, no airbag model, so when searching you will see '89 964's.

- the 993's had a better rear suspension, I forget the particulars though.

- the factory advises against 964's having 18" wheels. Lots of people have them and have no problems, but it is a running debate, especially on Rennlist.com.

- the price premium for the 993's is significant, maybe $5k - $10k.

I bought a '92 964 C2 coupe, manual, 63k miles, I'm the third owner, 2nd owner had it from 13k miles to 63k miles, a California car, excellent condition, blue-tan, $22k. For a 993 in this condition with excellent history, etc, would have been $35k or so, I believe.

For me the lines of the 964 were the more classic look I wanted.

Of course I "have" to add things now; upgrade wheels from 16" to 17", new tires, PSS9 suspension, new sway bars, strut tower brace, new airbox, plan for LWF, plan for performance chip, maybe a RSA tail, maybe a sport exhaust, etc, etc, etc.
That is the sickness no matter what car we all would buy, except maybe a new GT3!

Neither car is going to be the fastest sports car out there, so get the one that hits that nerve with you....you just know the entire package is perfect and affordable and eveyday you get into drive it will put a smile on your face. And everynight you'll peak your head out into the garage to take one more peak at it! (Drives my wife nuts)

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I guess this is our form of therapy around here. No one else will listen to me ramble about the benefits of the PSS9 over a Bilstein & H/R setup.....

[Oracle]

I suppose the 993 is tecnically better in some aspects because its newer but the classic lines of the 964 is the ultimate classic air cooled for me.
I chose the 964 and couldn't be happier.

[bigchillcar]

+1 oracle...993 may get 'last of the air-cooled', but 964 is arguably the last of the air-cooled, classic look..