Hypothetical autox scenario for feedback

[Teutonics]

Let me present a hypothetical situation for your review/feedback. Here's the scenario:
Let's say I'm competing in a class at the local PCA autox that is dominated by one car/driver combo.... that has been known to run the FTD. I want to be competitive (Let's say I'm typically 2nd in class), but don't have the budget (nor admittedly do I probably have the skill) to compete head-to-head.

Here are the issues:
My car: 100% stock (height, torsions, sways, 16x6/7,... everything) on standard street tires (Yoko A540), all maintenance/repairs done by me. Minimal autox/track time, but can hold my own in driving competitions (karts, autox)
Other car: 15x7/8, Victoracers, upgraded torsions/sways/shocks, exhaust, chip, blah, blah, blah..., all maintenance/upgrades done by well known race shop. And all within the permitted modifications as stated in the PCA Competition Rules. Licensed PCA racer, assumed driver training, etc.

Here are the questions:
Can I even be competitive? I usually finish higher than other cars with more modifications (suspension, wheels, tires, exhaust, etc.), but I can't come close to the #1 guy (usually around 10% difference in time.... in one word: spanked!).
What will get me the best bang for the buck... on a VERY limited budget? My plan would be tires first as a normal wear item, but what else can be done with minimal investment? Is it a requirement to "pay to play"? I am intentionally keeping the car stock, and DO NOT want to modify extensively beyond the stock configuration.
How can I win my class? (show up on the days I know this car/driver won't be there? )

Thanks for playing along!

[ttweed]

Originally posted by Teutonics
Can I even be competitive? I usually finish higher than other cars with more modifications (suspension, wheels, tires, exhaust, etc.), but I can't come close to the #1 guy (usually around 10% difference in time.... in one word: spanked!).
What will get me the best bang for the buck...

After seat time, tires are the #1 item. If you are running Yoko street tires, you could drop your times by several seconds just by running some Hoosier A3S04s at max allowable width for the class w/ as much camber as you can get within the rules. Expensive? Yes. But the grip your tires can generate in a single lap is all that's holding you to the pavement.

TT

[aj88cab]

A perplexing scenario indeed......Strickly hypothetical of course......

[J P Stein]

Tom pretty well summed this up and in the proper order.

I run against guys that have 10-20 years of AX experience AND do 30-40 AXs a year. My 15-20 AXs for 3-4 years really doesn't cut it.......and old age sux....that's my excuse and I'm stickin' to it

The only way I can get close to these guys is to have a car that is about useless for anything other than autocross....and it's gonna get worse. Street legal goes out the window (if I had any) this year.

[Tyson Schmidt]

Yeah, definitely Hoosiers and lots of negative camber.

Get some 15x7 and 8" Fuchs and run 225 front and 245 rear. I think Hoosier is the only brand that makes a 245 for 15" wheels. The advantage of the 15's being shorter gearing. The Sc's and Carreras are very tall geared.

After that, sway bars would be next.

Then shocks and torsion bars, but that's where it gets pricey.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

My personal view:

Number one: Seat time, seat time, seat time.
--Experience counts! A lot!!
Number two: Tires.
--The only things holding you to the ground...
Number three: See #1.
--Again, experience counts.
Number four: Good seat and four-point (or better!) harnesses.
--If you're concentrating on not sliding around in the car, you're not concentrating on driving!
Number five: See #1.
--And again....

--DD

[jhadler]

What Dave said! almost... ;-)

Well, you asked what you need to do to be competitive. Two things to keep in mind right off the bat.

Classing: A car can be a total underdog in one class, and the same car can be the car-du-jour in another class. It's a matter of seeing where -your- car fits best. What allowances are in each class should guide you to pick the class you want to compete in.

Preparation: Even autox, where the cost of entry is usually only the $20-40 for an event, it's still -motorsports-. What does that mean? It means that there will always be someone who's willing to invest ludicrous amounts of money for any percieved advantage, however slight. If you're racing on a budget, like most of us are (myself included), read the rules and pick a class that fits your budget within reason.

Will your car, as prepped, be competitive against the one you described? Probably not, that's the obvious answer. What can you do get closer? Now there's something with content! Dave had a good list, but I'd like to change that a little...

1) Seat time is definitely number 1, 2 and 3 as far as dropping your times. Just like the old punch line..."How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, Practice, Practice...". When you talk about racing (autox or TT or RR), a good driver in a mediocre car will always beat a mediocre driver in a good car.

4) Tires make a difference, but only once the rest of the car has already been at least moderately optimized. Anything in a competition DOT radial will be considerably quicker than a basic street tire.

5) Get the car aligned. That makes more of a difference in handling than many people give credit to. Not factory alignment specs, but something tailored to autox. I don't know 911's well enough to say for certain, but a little toe in at the rear, and maybe a -little- toe out in front. Get as much negative camber as you -reasonably- can. Don't drop big bucks on camber plates quite yet, but use what the factory gave you (adjustability) as much as you can.

6) SHOCKS!!! THis really should go up to number 4. Shocks make a MASSIVE difference. Again, something a lot of people don't give enough credit to. As a matter of fact, for bang-for-the-buck, I'd rate good shocks over race tires. I'd do this for one main reason, COST. True, a set of shocks may very well cost more than race tires (per corner), but you don't need to keep replacing shocks every year, and tires will come and go pretty quickly once you start pushing the limit. Konis are pretty much the standard, there are better shocks to be sure, and you'll pay for that difference too... But Konis are a FAR cry better than stock Boge's or KYB's (yuck).

Once you've gone that far, start looking at springs and sway bars. Stuff like a chip and exhaust really are low on the list of "things to get" for autox. Why? Autox is 80% handling. Once you make the car handle -really- well. And you get more and more experience, you'll find power isn't -that- important. That being said, we all want more power!!! So if the budget has room for some go-faster goodies, go for it. But foucs on the two most important elements fist. The Suspension and the Steering Nut (that's you!). Get those two dialed in, and you'll be the one everyone else is trying to catch up to.

Harnesses are a great thing to have. The best part, besides what dave mentioned (and that's the -real- reason to have 'em), is that for very little investment, you suddenly -feel- a lot more like a "racer" and that mental perception does indeed make a difference. When you're confident, your driving reflects it...

-Josh2

[SandyI]

What do you consider "a very limited budget?"

[david c.]

Without getting into driver issues, my list would be:

1) Proper ax tires ($500-600 +/- if you've already got extra wheels)
2) A very good alignment and corner balance (varies on geography)
3) A set of adjustable anti roll bars (DIY $500 +/-)

[david c.]

I think the 245mm 15 inch Hoosier only comes in the road race compound. I wish it wasn't true and if someone knows otherwise please post!

[skinnerd]

my order....
1) driver no. one for sure
2) tires
3) I'd go shocks here....the best you can afford
4) next torsion bars and possibly anti-sway bars if you don't have 'em
5) good set of harnesses to keep you in place and not hanging on to the steering wheel for dear life

driving skills are way up there
I've been doing this for right at 20 years, and it still amazes me that I'm not going as fast as I can; when I get a better driver to ride with me, they always can show me a place to go faster
Carrying speed and maintaining your speed at all costs is the name of the game
Everytime you slow down (by using dem brakes), you just need to speed up again
The best guys really know where and how to carry speed

[rich22]

Hoosiers? Get used racing slicks. A lot cheaper and somewhat faster.

[Teutonics]

Originally posted by SandyI
What do you consider "a very limited budget?"

Realistically? Zero... as in zip, nada, nothing.

However, with much pleading, begging, cajoling, justification, rationalization, and some covert operations, I can slide some past the CFO... I mean wife.

Great feedback. It sounds like a set of dedicated track wheels/tires is the first step. Where does one find used racing slicks? Did someone mention a slippery slope?

[aj88cab]

Now that you feel yourself slipping down that slope.....Take a look at this thread. It has a couple of sites for wheels that look very reasonable.

And all this for a hypothetical cause

Need Race wheels...16 or 17. Suggestions?

Andrew

[Joe Ricard]

Shocks? Now there is something I know nothing about.
My 914 tips the scales at 1978 lbs.
I have done the AX alignment (sure is a handfull on the street)
Kumho Ecsta V700's Recaro SRD seat & 5 pt harness
The car has Koni adjustable shocks screw at top.

So how should I change my shocks for AX I mean full firm, only 1/2 way. More firm front or back? What are the effects of firmer or softer?
Sunday will be my 6th event.

[jhadler]

Originally posted by rich22
Hoosiers? Get used racing slicks. A lot cheaper and somewhat faster.

Used racing slicks are a great deal. But NOT for a bone stock car. Slicks, and by that I mean really -slicks-, are very aggressive, and very tempermental tires. A lot of people call the DOT racing tires "slicks" because they have no tread, or very little, but they're not -slicks-.

For one thing, a real slick is extreemly sticky (even used) and may be too much for a tired stock suspension. Suspension failure (or worse) can be the result.

Another, they handle drasticaly differently than street tires do, and getting used to them will definitely take a while.

The last, but no means least important, is that slicks will very likley bump you up into a class where you're competing against trailer-riding-fire-breathing-monsters. If you're looking to be -fast-, you can give it a try, but I wouldn't recommend it. But if you're looking to be -competitive- I wouldn't go that route.

-Josh2

[jhadler]

Originally posted by Joe Ricard
Shocks? Now there is something I know nothing about.
My 914 tips the scales at 1978 lbs.
I have done the AX alignment (sure is a handfull on the street)
Kumho Ecsta V700's Recaro SRD seat & 5 pt harness
The car has Koni adjustable shocks screw at top.

So how should I change my shocks for AX I mean full firm, only 1/2 way. More firm front or back? What are the effects of firmer or softer?
Sunday will be my 6th event.

There are whole books dedicated to this topic, and no doubt you should find oneor two and browse them, it's really interesting reading.

Basically, the stiffer end of the car will be more prone to sliding. That's the one sentance version....

If you find that the car is understeering in every turn, you can either soften the front end, thereby reducing its tendancy to slide. Or you can stiffen the rear end, thereby increasing its tendancy to slide and make it slip before the front, therein creating oversteer instead of understeer.

Konis are great because you can make them soft for daily driving, and crank 'em up for autox. They're not the best inthe world, but they certainly do a good job. If the rest of your car is stock, then 1/2 is good place to start if you feel the car is well balancd. Seeing as this will be your 6th event, you may now have a good feel for what the car is doing over the course of a run. Experiment a little. If you feel the car isn't rotating enough, try adding a 1/4 turn to the rear shocks. Give it a run or two and see how it feels. If you feel the car is too loose, but you like the way it turns in, take a 1/4 turn out of the rear.

It really is more of an art than a science. Especially for those of us without full on-board data acquisition systems. :-)

All cars setups will be different in some way. Driver preference has a lot to d with it. Some people really like a loose a twitchy car, and that's how they go fast. Others like a car that's perfectly neutral. I like a neutral car. A little rotation under throttle in a turn is perfect.

Set the car up to what you're confident with, an you'll find that you'll go faster. Confidence really is key. If you're not confident that you can take that next turn flat-out, then you'll lift, slow down, and give up some time. If you trust the car, and know what it can and can't do, you might very well be able to take that next turn with your foot on floor...

"Secrets of Solo Racing" by Henry Watts is a great first book for learning the basics. There are a host of books out there, and if you're into it, you'll find them with ease. But that's a really good book to start with...

-Josh2

[SandyI]

Josh is a very wise man.

Here's my suggestion...
1.) Surprise your wife with an expensive piece of jewelry.
2.) Wait three days.
3.) Tell your wife, as she's admiring her expensive piece of jewelry, you'll be "putting some money" into your Porsche.
4.) Purchase your new aggessive auto-x/street tires and have them mounted on your wheels.
5.) Get your car to a seasoned Porsche pro to have the car rebalanced, the suspension, shocks, and brake set-up completely overhauled and upgraded.
6.) Watch your checks clear and your bank balance drop. Rationalize that you're participating in the most expensive sport on planet earth. Think about the yearly budget of the Ferrari F-1 team. Gosh. The money you just spent seems like a bargain.
7.) Go to the track and see immediate results.
8.) Begin saving for your wife's next expensive gift.

Ask me how I know if this works...

[skinnerd]

Sandy..... is wise beyond belief!

[ttweed]

Originally posted by jhadler
If you find that the car is understeering in every turn, you can either soften the front end, thereby reducing its tendancy to slide. Or you can stiffen the rear end, thereby increasing its tendancy to slide and make it slip before the front, therein creating oversteer instead of understeer.

Josh, this is absolutely correct, but I have to disagree with you that adjustable shocks are the way to accomplish this. The correct way to balance the car is with spring rates first and adjustable anti-roll bars secondly, to fine tune. Alignment settings can also be used effectively. The purpose of the shocks is to dampen suspension occilations and keep the tire on the ground at all times, regardless of surface irregularities. They are NOT supposed to be used to change the handling balance (understeer/oversteer tendencies.) Radical tire pressure adjustments can (and often are) used to do the same thing, but that is not an ideal solution either. The tires will work better and generate more total grip at their correct pressure, but people will often change them at one end of the car or the other to remedy a handling problem which is better dealt with by other means.

The reason that high-$$$ double and triple adjustable shocks have been used to accomplish what your springs and ARBs should be doing is that SCCA Solo2 rules do not allow changing the spring rates or rear ARBs in Stock classes, or obtaining any more negative camber than is possible with factory suspension pieces, but yet changing the shocks is free! People have realized that they can alter their handling characteristics by large changes in shock valving, but this is NOT the ideal way to make a car faster and handle better, it is a compromise solution based on a particular ruleset. If you are not subject to this limitation, why do it?

Shocks should be valved in compression and rebound to match the wheel rates and adjusted only for the roughness of the track, or perhaps for fine tuning for some small segment of the track, as necessary. They should not be used to make up for inadequate spring rates or to adjust gross handling balance, except as a last resort or a stop-gap measure.

TT