Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog Tech Info Tech Forums
 
  Search our site:    
 Cart  | Project List | Order Status | Help    
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
333pg333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,191
Garage
How do you learn to crash?

Thought that might get a few views and opinions. I've started the thread with quite a lot of content but thought we may as well get as many facts out from the beginning.

Ok so I got myself into a situation 10 days ago at the track. First time I had the car back out there since late 2010 after a large number of changes. Apart from a bit of 'Ring Rust' (Boxing term, not in relation to my leakdown numbers) I was finding the car a bit jittery. The tail had stepped out previously that day and we removed the rear sway bar completely for a temporary fix. The builder is of the opinion that the rear springs are too stiff (just over 900 front and 1100 rears) however this is a kit that I bought from Moton for a race prepared 944 turbo.

As you will see in the video I am going through a long left hand constant radius corner. I was travelling about 145mph before light braking. You can see that I make an initial correction but then soon afterwards the tail just steps out on me. There has been much conjecture and supposition as to the cause. Some think the car in front was probably spilling some fluid based on how much unburned fuel was pouring out and how I described the car as a bit of a shade tree 'Special'. AlfaSud with a mid mounted Rotary 13b motor and what looked like a GT35 turbo. Meant to be good for about 600hp but not so much on this particular day as I saw him working pretty feverously on it in the pits.

People have also said I over corrected and caused my own demise. Well this may be true to an extent however they weren't in the car and didn't experience the total sudden full loss of traction. Couple with the one pressing thought in my mind which was to avoid snapping back across the track and into the Left hand inside wall at all costs. We've seen too many cars do this and end up in bad accidents and rollovers. So I was determined not to let this happen.

After this however was where I was lost at sea. The grass was totally sodden due to a week of record breaking torrential rain so there was no slowing down over this. Then into the Gravel which didn't seem to slow my progress much either. Finally spinning about 90o to hit the wall pretty much perfectly side on which may have been the best thing for the car. Not so much for me as you'll no doubt agree.
Broken ribs and nasty whiplash but overall very lucky to be up and about straight away. Adrenalin is amazing stuff.

So anyway, apart from a burning desire to figure out the cause (more on this later) I realise that I just didn't have any moves in my armory to pull off once I left the track. Should I have tried to spin the car at some stage either through handbrake (not easy to access in a 951) or a sharp tug on the steering wheel?
Should I have tried to rotate the car or would this have seriously increased the chances of a rollover? These are the things that I just don't know and wonder why we don't get any form of education in matters like this?? Perhaps nobody will give us this advice in such litigious times but there must be some info out there to enable a fighting chance of avoiding massive impact?

GO952 crash April 2012.wmv - YouTube
Note the car in front do a pretty obvious tail wag on the last corner before main straight on final lap....(as I'm continuing to stumble ineffectively groping for my new 3rd gear! Hey it's a new 6 speed trans and I said I was rusty! )

So according the the engineer he is of the belief that the rear suspension doesn't have enough droop and is causing the inside rear wheel to actually lift which of course reduces traction by approx 25% but also creates that imbalanced Jacking motion. It seems very unlikely that a car such as this would lift a wheel on such a corner but the data points to this. So once we pull the car down and check we will know what was the cause...or I'm not going out in it again! The other possibility was that we were running pretty high boost levels (23psi) and there may have been a bit of headlift which could have caused coolant to drip down onto the rear wheels. I don't think this is the case but have had this happen in the past and I went off without warning in similar fashion although much slower on a different track. Also didn't notice leaks in the pits that day. I haven't been back to the car yet for a few reasons. Hope to see it this weekend and perhaps find something apparent.
__________________
Patrick

Youtube 333pg333

86 modified 951

Last edited by 333pg333; 04-30-2012 at 11:57 PM..
Old 04-30-2012, 11:32 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
333pg333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,191
Garage
Here are some thoughts from the Engineer:

Hi Patrick
I’ve been analysing some of the data in more detail and what I have discovered is the following.
We have been using 45mm of rear damper travel at the track. This probably equates to around 70mm of wheel travel.
Unfortunately the car needs to have more droop travel through some of the higher G force turns. The inside rear wheel is lifting off the ground, this is the jacking effect that Paul was talking about, at the time we thought it was being caused by too much rebound damping and we removed some.
Factory setup have the droop controlled by the bolts retaining the outer torsion bar bush, your application probably has the rear droop controlled by a spacer above the piston within the damper so some damper or rear suspension setup mods will be required before the next outing.
If you look at the data particularly suspension position [position each corner in a new graph on the page] you will see that the lr suspension pots flat lines during some corners at around -22.
At this time the rear wheel is starting to lift of the ground and the rear will start to become unstable.
Your video also confirms this as you have to correct your line on entry , you were travelling 16 klms quicker than the previous lap and the gpsmap shows you wider on entry before the apex which all added to the event.
The rear end appears to be rolling more that the front but a more accurate measurement of motion ratios would be required before you could call this a fact.
Everywhere that the lr suspension starts to bounce off the full droop point is where you were complaining about a lack of rear grip so we need to rectify this before next outing.
If there are no spacers within the damper then we may need to get extended rose joints, Im a bit surprised that this has occured given that you bought the dampers to suit this application.
Mark
Rsport Race Engineering


When I put the concept of disbelief to the engineer that we were getting inside wheel lift on this corner he replied with the below paragraph. Unfortunately I can't upload .pdfs so I have put in a link to a thread on Rennlist for those that want to see the screen capture data from the shock pots.

See post #578 Patrick's build thread. (IT RUNS!) - Page 39 - Rennlist Discussion Forums


Hi Patrick
Please see attached screen capture. Unless the rear wheel managed to hold at exactly the same height for over a second on each of the three occasions as you turned in I would believe my comments to be correct. I think the wheel lifted on entry and you were a victim of the grip slide shimmy scenario on entry to the corner which caused your mid corner correction and subsequent running wide on exit. I'm not saying that the rear shock has definitely bottomed out but something has definitely stopped suspension droop at that point, the most likely scenario is that the shock has runout of travel but regardless the situation needs to be reviewed to see what has caused the suspension to stop its travel and cause wheel lifting at that point.
Please note if you look at the capture you can see a similar trait in the right rear shock as you leave the track at about the same level of droop.
The 'grip-slide shimmy' is when the rear end grips and then slides and requires steering correction to maintain line through the corner.


Also to note the car was running on 10.5" x 18" 285/645 front and 11.5" x 18" 305s rear. Brand new Hoosier R80 slicks. Also while we had a pretty decent front splitter on we haven't had time to put on the large rear wing so have only had what is known as a Hoop spoiler from the Factory. This could also have affected the balance front to rear.
__________________
Patrick

Youtube 333pg333

86 modified 951

Last edited by 333pg333; 04-30-2012 at 11:59 PM..
Old 04-30-2012, 11:44 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
vas930's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RYE VICTORIA AUSTRALIA
Posts: 4,545
Garage
That was a bad hit, Patrick.
Great to see you came out ok.
As to the cause, unless I was driving at the time I cant help.
Keep your chin up.
I once destryed a 40k engine before it was even in my car.
I know how you feel.
Good luck finding the cause.
__________________
79 Silver 930 SOLD
Old 05-01-2012, 01:02 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
ɹoʇɐɹǝpoɯ
 
Jack Olsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,743
Sorry to hear about the crash -- and relieved that you seem to have avoided serious injury.

Very tough to have that happen just when the car has come back from a long build.

If the problem were as simple as the architecture of your suspension, then wouldn't you have noticed the intermittent loss of grip in the earlier trips through the corner? I'm the furthest thing from an expert, but I wonder if your toe setting came out of adjustment (I've got no idea about how it's set on your car). I say that based on my own experience, where an eccentric bolt was just loose enough to drift out of its setting in the course of a session, leading to a similar high-speed off.

You may never learn what went wrong. But when the car comes back, I'd do some more rigorous testing of the handling before I'd go out on a track like that one. The stakes are pretty high with corners that fast. (That track looks like it would be a lot of fun to drive, by the way.)

You're also due for a Hans or Isaac or similar head and neck restraint. The distance your head appears to travel is kind of scary when you consider how little is needed to induce a basilar skull fracture.

Glad you're okay.
Old 05-01-2012, 08:42 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
GorillaFoot
 
GorillaFoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: largo, FL
Posts: 328
Patrick- tough week for 951's! We both just spent a boat load of money (you more than me, admittedly) and I also wrecked my car last Sunday! $7k in front end damage- a Lotus spun in front of me and I had no where to go. Anyhoo, be thankful your drivetrain is OK and you are not on a breathing machine.

+1 with Jack. Get a HANS or something. You're in a race car now.

The rest of the stuff makes perfect sense. Not enough rear travel, possibly a stiff rebound set-up and it seems the Motons may have been spec'd out taking that big ass rear wing into account. I don't think you'd have any rear lift with that thing hanging out the back.

Could be fluids on track, but your datalogger strongly indicates it was the set-up.

I know from experience, once the 951 starts rotating, it moves really quick. Not sure our hands are fast enough to counteract.
__________________
1989 951- As graphics have been added, it's less red, but read more. Stock has been socked. Caged, stripped, bump sticked, blown, chipped and tweaked, rollin' on Hoosiers.
Old 05-01-2012, 10:16 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Pete R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,059
Garage
Sometimes there's just mistakes too
glad your ok.. but get a HANS or equiv. so you can crash again another day
__________________
1979 928 85 Euro 2v motor,S4 Brakes and suspension, 1988 951 street legal track car(sold)
Neon SRT4 track car
Old 05-01-2012, 11:49 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Now Available for Ordering:   101 Projects For Your BMW 3 Series 1982-2000  [more info]
Registered User
 
333pg333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,191
Garage
Yes the safety aspect will be increased with Hans, Halo, and Net next time. I agree, I was lucky although at times it's a little hard to feel convinced of this. Oh and it was my birthday haha.

The thing that I can't seem to get any information on is should I have rotated the car once off the track or is that just too much an unknown factor?
What would you guys have done once you were heading to the outfield?

There were some signs of suspension malcontent previously and we did adjust the rear rebound plus remove the rear sway. That turn also has some bumps through it and can be a little unsettling. By muffing the 3rd gear change on the turns leading onto the straight I had left a bit more of a gap between the car in front which allowed me to come into that turn 16kmh / 10mph faster than the previous lap, but I have been through that corner plenty of times at what I guess is close enough to that speed.

Gorilla, sorry to hear of your crash. Hope you get it back soon. Assuming you're OK?

nb Jack, that is the short North track that they've recently opened. There will be another South track so they can run 2 events simultaneously. Here's the old GP track in my car back in 2010.
Eastern Creek PCNSW 5th Supersprint 17.10.10.wmv - YouTube
__________________
Patrick

Youtube 333pg333

86 modified 951

Last edited by 333pg333; 05-01-2012 at 12:18 PM..
Old 05-01-2012, 12:14 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
tobluforu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,116
Garage
The fact that you had the nerve to down shift while you are about to hit the wall was pretty amazing; I would have just closed my eyes at that point and held on tight.
__________________
72 911
Although it is done at the moment, it will never be finished.
Old 05-01-2012, 12:14 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
GorillaFoot
 
GorillaFoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: largo, FL
Posts: 328
I watch a lot of Formula 1 and even with the best drivers in the world, when the bad stuff happens, sometimes you are just a passenger. All of the new F1 tracks have asphalt runoffs, for this very reason. Hit grass and gravel and there is virtually no car control or controlled slow down.

I beat myself up a bit too last weekend, trying to figure out how I could have avoided my collision. Without going off course and possibly losing control myself, I had nowhere to go- the guy was stadling the track and rolled right back into me.

I even looked through my racing books to see what pro drivers try to do- yeah, nothing there.

Sometimes you just do not have enough time to make the right decision. Reviewing you video, from the time from your fatal twitch to the time you went off course took less than a second, then less than 3 seconds to hit the wall. Not a lot of time. I'd be suprised if the best drivers in the world would have been able to recover that one, even given a few chances.

With the weight of our cars at opposing ends of the chassis, when we lose traction, the car is going to want to CONTINUE to spin more than other cars and with equal wieght at either end, how do you know which direction the car will spin next?

I just don't think there is a good equation for that
__________________
1989 951- As graphics have been added, it's less red, but read more. Stock has been socked. Caged, stripped, bump sticked, blown, chipped and tweaked, rollin' on Hoosiers.
Old 05-01-2012, 01:34 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
333pg333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,191
Garage
Yes, others have remarked on the downshift. Not sure if it scrubbed off any speed but it was all I could think of at the time. I’m sure there was an element of ‘Deer caught in the headlights’ syndrome too in which you become slightly paralysed and just a passenger…but damn I would have liked to have done something more.
Is there just a basic adage of keeping the car straight when off the track so as to avoid any chance of a rollover? Wish I knew more.
__________________
Patrick

Youtube 333pg333

86 modified 951
Old 05-01-2012, 02:33 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Pete R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,059
Garage
I think it would be better to not be going sideways to avoid a roll, but generally, I think if you could control that you wouldn't have been crashing in the first place. I just dont see any driver in the world saving that once the car was off the pavement. Grass isn't know for grip. I've seen pros in similar crashes, they don't even try to save it, they take their hands off the wheel and hang on to their belts, or cover their head and prepare their bodies the best they can for the impact.
__________________
1979 928 85 Euro 2v motor,S4 Brakes and suspension, 1988 951 street legal track car(sold)
Neon SRT4 track car
Old 05-01-2012, 02:50 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: So. Cal
Posts: 67
Garage
Sorry to see this happen to you, but glad you came out if it without too many injuries! The only thing I would add has been touched on briefly. Letting go of the wheel before impact.

Hope all goes well with your comeback.

M
Old 05-01-2012, 03:12 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Plavan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 2,628
Garage
Ouch.... I personally think something in the suspension came loose or failed. Maybe something was not torqued right.
__________________
J. Chad Plavan
911ST Race Car/2.5L SS Race Motor
1972 911T- Numbers matching- Restoring to stock
2011 Porsche Spyder Wht/Blk/Carbon Fiber Buckets/6-Speed
2013 Ford F150 Lariat Ecoboost- Porsche Hauler.
Old 05-01-2012, 04:05 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
what? me worry?
 
TimT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Wantagh, NY
Posts: 6,135
"Two feet in"

and thumbs off the wheel...

At some point you are just along for the ride

Check out what Danica does just before she hits the wall... hands off the wheel

__________________
who are those guys? <<< ( Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid)
Rent a GT3RS from us!! Call or e-mail.
Transportation and Track support
Rudtners Racing

'69 911 GT-5
'75 914 GT-3
Authorised Haltech seller and installer
Authorised Unichip installer
BBS wheels
Fikse wheels
Redline motors oils
Swepco
1500 hp chassis dyno
Old 05-01-2012, 04:54 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
what? me worry?
 
TimT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Wantagh, NY
Posts: 6,135
Also did you notice the water that sprayed onto her windshield?

I hit some tire barriers once, and got drenched with swampy, stagnant, mosquito larvae infest swamp water that must have been in the tires at Summit Point for years..

It was effing disgusting...
__________________
who are those guys? <<< ( Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid)
Rent a GT3RS from us!! Call or e-mail.
Transportation and Track support
Rudtners Racing

'69 911 GT-5
'75 914 GT-3
Authorised Haltech seller and installer
Authorised Unichip installer
BBS wheels
Fikse wheels
Redline motors oils
Swepco
1500 hp chassis dyno
Old 05-01-2012, 04:59 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Pete R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,059
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimT View Post
Also did you notice the water that sprayed onto her windshield?

I hit some tire barriers once, and got drenched with swampy, stagnant, mosquito larvae infest swamp water that must have been in the tires at Summit Point for years..

It was effing disgusting...
that's reason enough not to hit one. I think Danika's water was from her radiator though.
__________________
1979 928 85 Euro 2v motor,S4 Brakes and suspension, 1988 951 street legal track car(sold)
Neon SRT4 track car
Old 05-01-2012, 05:32 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Pete R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,059
Garage
Any pics of the damage? How bad is it?
__________________
1979 928 85 Euro 2v motor,S4 Brakes and suspension, 1988 951 street legal track car(sold)
Neon SRT4 track car
Old 05-01-2012, 05:54 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
ɹoʇɐɹǝpoɯ
 
Jack Olsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimT View Post
I hit some tire barriers once, and got drenched with swampy, stagnant, mosquito larvae infest swamp water that must have been in the tires at Summit Point for years..

It was effing disgusting...
Sears Point has some nasty, brackish water.



Here's the foolhardy driver, moments before impact.



Closer in, you can see that it's a calm look, considering that I'd driven the car 364 miles to that track and would soon have to figure out how to drive it back home.



I'm looking in the direction the car is heading, but you can see the gasses expanding under the tires faster than it's moving, so the smoke is actually leading the way.

For the record, I did not bring my arms in, Danica-style. I haven't crashed enough times to have burned that into the circuits of my brain stem.
Old 05-01-2012, 07:33 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
333pg333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,191
Garage
I keep thinking that I should have held onto my helmet and braced myself. I remember ducking down but that was after the impact. Situations like this can be quite surreal. It's as if you're in your own movie.

I haven't been back to the car since the crash. We took it back to the workshop and put it on a hoist and it's sat there ever since. We had a bit of a look around from underneath on the night and it 'seemed' ok but no real checks have been done.
I'm going back there this weekend to have more of a look and hopefully the following week it will have the damaged panels removed and we can assess the damage to the chassis etc. The Windscreen/roof appeared straight and the chassis rails from underneath looked straight. The left hand tie rod is bent but the rest 'appeared' ok. I think I was very lucky to have hit pretty much perfectly side on and into the tyre barrier. They absorbed a lot of the impact and sort of wrapped around the left hand side to a degree. Fingers crossed all I will need is some more panels and a bit of paint...but I've learned to harness hope in this field.
__________________
Patrick

Youtube 333pg333

86 modified 951
Old 05-01-2012, 08:09 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Mahler9th's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 1,633
First, I am sorry that you hurt your car and that you were hurt. I hope that you mend fully without too much discomfort and hassle. And that your car gets fixed without too much cost and hassle.

Now some observations in no particular order...

1.I don't know how much experience you have with those tires. Scrubbing back and forth like that as you head on the track does little in my experience, unless you have a bunch of easy-to-get-off crud on the tires. When I move back and forth on an out lap, it is for nearly the entire lap, and I do some things like drive really side ways in certain corners to help further build some temp and get rid of the crud. This is my experience with slicks. I did not see anything in the video that suggested you did much to get heat into the tires. Just an observation.

2. The camera seems well placed, but I think it would be helpful if you had a brake light indication somewhere in the FOV. Even with data acq, I am a believer that a brake light in the FOV is helpful. I have both a brake light and a WOT light in my car in the camera FOV.

3. It never looks like you are working the tires in the video. I see no real corrections like you are getting anywhere near their limits and using their grip. I am not sure why it appears that way, but generally it looks to me like you were not "up on the tires" at all.

I might expect this in the early laps with a new car build after not having driven for a while. That would be good judgment building up confidence in the car and learning its behavior in an effort to learn its pluses and minuses.

Given a cautious step-by-step approach in terms of cornering speed in general, some would also take late apexes-- that is later than the proper apexes for the corners. I do not know whether you were doing this or not. I think going late as you are building experience with a new car is important, especially with a turbocharged car. No matter what gauges and data tell you, you have to get a feel for boost. It is different in different gears. Ask me how I know... (3rd gear boost oversteer in a slow corner at Laguna Seca).

4. More on the car... I do not remember what type of seat you have, but I can see a lot of your back/shoulder, and that is unsettling. And as mentioned, a head and neck restraint is likely prudent.

5. To me, it looks like you are taking a too early apex, with cold tires and in a situation where you could get a somewhat sudden infusion of power from boost curve climbing. The rear tires seem to say, "No thank you... I cannot accelerate and corner based on these input data. My performance limits are exceeded and I will now give up all grip."

Sure, it could all be a handling/suspension deal, but I personally doubt that unless your car is vastly different from other 951s with which I have had experience. You have to make sure you have enough suspension travel and all of that... don't want to see a sudden infinite spring rate. But I'd expect other corners to reveal that...

That corner may be just a little like turn 1 at Thunderhill, but it is hard to say. I have only seen a few folks go too early at turn 1, but i did see a 993 GT2 factory turbo car suffer from not losing enough speed on entry and he wound up in the turn 2 worker box tires. His rear tires let go first with a "what, are you kidding? No way, see ya grip." One of our local guys was driving.

6. I am not sure what you could have done differently in terms of deciding what to do after the tires let go. I see a bunch of entry corrections and maybe there was a lift... but it is difficult to get a good recovery when you are going that fast... especially if the tires are cold and the car is somewhat unfamiliar and the driver is rusty. Obviously wet grass is no help.

One of my former students recently went early at a corner at Thunderhill... wet grass and soft ground caused lots of damage that wouldn't happen in the summer. He was in a new build and still learning slicks and I figure he went early, and maybe the tires weren't yet up. This was in a 911, which is much easier to drive than a 951.

Again, sorry about the accident, and hopefully you will be able to get back up and running quite quickly.
__________________
Mike
PCA Golden Gate Region
Porsche Racing Club #4
BMWCCA
NASA

Last edited by Mahler9th; 05-01-2012 at 08:53 PM..
Old 05-01-2012, 08:44 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:12 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2011 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 


DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.