What good is handling in corners if you always get passed on the straights?

[wayner]

Yes, modern muscle car manufacturers have levelled the playing field by finally focussing on more that just HP and 1/4 mile times

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

...Yet, few people ever acknowledge that while saying they "can only go in straight lines, and suck ass on a track because they handle like trucks..."

I think you'll find that most people here aren't saying that. Look at the thread, most of us have been pretty careful to specify old muscle cars. Modern ones are quite a different species, and they have been engineered to do a whole lot more than go 1/4 mile in a straight line! They are quite amazing cars, quite frankly.

But that is quite a different argument than saying that handling is worthless and power is everything.

--DD

[sugarwood]

That's fair, I was amalgamating general car culture memes, and not specifically referring to statements from this thread in particular.
I'm sure you've heard them also. I felt Wayner and others made excellent points while acknowledging my general point.

Only tiny percentage of "car people" have likely driven modern muscle, and even smaller percentage at the track, so it's almost impossible for anyone to have an accurate view to update old reputations.

Well, barring driver skill, one may conclude that handling is worthless and power is everything when your dump truck muscle car with zero handling miraculously stays ahead of the light nimble at the track.

Dave, check out last place.
Laguna Seca (post 1988) lap times - FastestLaps.com

[wayner]

I think that you will also find that muscle cars only started to handle well out of the show room relatively recently. There was still a lot of suckage in the 90s and maybe later.

Also, don't count the corvette. Even back in the 50s it was GMs attempt at a European sports car
(Google Duntov)

[winders]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Well, barring driver skill, one may conclude that handling is worthless and power is everything when your dump truck muscle car with zero handling miraculously stays ahead of the light nimble at the track.

You are just about the only one that concludes handling is worthless and power is everything. Anyone with actual experience knows better.

[juanbenae]

shug's jus trolling now... it's fun to watch, but trolling jus the same.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by winders

You are just about the only one that concludes handling is worthless and power is everything. Anyone with actual experience knows better.

Here is a very simple question: Which car wins?

[winders]

That video tells me nothing about the issue at hand. I have no idea how competent the drivers are and I have no idea how the cars are configured.

Keep wasting your time looking at videos....

[gliding_serpent]

I dont know about the rest of you, but every time sugarwood calls american cars "big fat understtering dumptruck pigs" or some variation, i just take a drink.

Go back to my first reply (post#2). " this sounds like a sugarwood thread."

[juanbenae]

Originally Posted by gliding_serpent

I dont know about the rest of you, but every time sugarwood calls american cars "big fat understtering dumptruck pigs" or some variation, i just take a drink.

try drinking every time you read sugarwood. that's a man's game....

[sugarwood]

Nimble gets passed in the straight. Drink 1 shot.
Muscle gets passed in the corner. Drink 1 shot.
Any car spins out after lifting in the turn. Drink 2 shots.
Someone yells "Nemesis". Finish bottle.
Someone does a money shift. Stick finger down your throat.

For the sake of our careers, let's end this one before the work week begins tomorrow.

[SiberianDVM]

I race a bit in ChumpCar.

The lightweight, underpowered, but superbly balanced Miatas do quite well, but only if they have drivers that maximize conservation of momentum. They will hip check you out of the way in the corners.

The mostly stock, lightweight, underpowered, but well balanced E30s also do quite well, using the same high quality drivers. They go more for the dive bomb into the corners, daring you not to lift and let them in.

American cars are mostly represented by 70's Camaros and Firebirds, often with SBC swaps, and almost always with major suspension and brake upgrades. Without the suspension and brake upgrades? Forget about it. Over the course of an endurance race, the Camaros/Firebirds burn out their brakes and blow shocks and blister tires. Not to mention having to refuel every 1 to 1.25 hours.

That said, the teams that win a lot are ones where the drivers are all very good, and the car has been lightened a lot more than you would think possible, fuel range has been managed in such a way as to minimize pit stops, and the race prep has been done by people who do it for a living.

[Charles Freeborn]

Originally Posted by SiberianDVM

I race a bit in ChumpCar.

The lightweight, underpowered, but superbly balanced Miatas do quite well, but only if they have drivers that maximize conservation of momentum. They will hip check you out of the way in the corners.

The mostly stock, lightweight, underpowered, but well balanced E30s also do quite well, using the same high quality drivers. They go more for the dive bomb into the corners, daring you not to lift and let them in.

American cars are mostly represented by 70's Camaros and Firebirds, often with SBC swaps, and almost always with major suspension and brake upgrades. Without the suspension and brake upgrades? Forget about it. Over the course of an endurance race, the Camaros/Firebirds burn out their brakes and blow shocks and blister tires. Not to mention having to refuel every 1 to 1.25 hours.

That said, the teams that win a lot are ones where the drivers are all very good, and the car has been lightened a lot more than you would think possible, fuel range has been managed in such a way as to minimize pit stops, and the race prep has been done by people who do it for a living.

Absolutely all true. Good friends run a Honda CRX in Chump / Lucky Dog. As long as there aren't 3 (or more) Miata's in the field they'll podium. All excellent drivers, car is stupid light, and perfectly set up. They'll pit at the mandatory 2 hrs and no sooner. Rain helps too. If it's wet the big cars don't have a chance - even with the extra cooling. One of their drivers likes the rain so much his nickname is "Rain Man".

[gliding_serpent]

Honda crx's are popular at our track, as are miatas. Spec e30's do great also. Bmw e36 m3's dominate with power and handeling. A tube frame car set up and driven by the old chief engineer for extreme speed motorsports (now with risi ferarri) wins hands down. Mind you, we have a small amateur group at our little track. Our track is not friendly to cars that can not handle. But it is full of friendly folks.

[hoorah]

Originally Posted by SiberianDVM

They will hip check you out of the way in the corners.

The mostly stock, lightweight, underpowered, but well balanced E30s also do quite well, using the same high quality drivers. They go more for the dive bomb into the corners, daring you not to lift and let them in.

Isn't that the truth. As a newer racer in chump I feel like I've got a sign on my back that says "This guy is going to lift if you dive bomb him. Easy pass."

The first (and only) time I made a pass on an E30 with our 944 felt pretty good, especially since its happening the other way most of the time.

[SiberianDVM]

Originally Posted by hoorah

Isn't that the truth. As a newer racer in chump I feel like I've got a sign on my back that says "This guy is going to lift if you dive bomb him. Easy pass."

The first (and only) time I made a pass on an E30 with our 944 felt pretty good, especially since its happening the other way most of the time.

It's racing and I understand it, but I'll admit that it pisses me off sometimes. Especially when I have to keep repairing the fenders. Our car looked pretty decent right after construction. Now it looks like a POS.

[Damon in STL]

Here's another outtake showing some level of irritation on my part when the muscle cars get in the way. The comments are from the original vid. I'm racing the yellow BMW e36 when I get held up by the V8 as the vid starts. I'd been pacing myself and just keeping in touch with the BMW who is in 1st place and I'm in second. I ended up winning the race when the e36 got caught up in traffic and went off at T4 as I was catching up to him..... This race was on a 95 degree day and my cool suit was not working!!! I got out of the car at the end of the race and was basically speaking gibberish Luckily my race buddies got me cooled down with cold towels etc.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6C48zHUsTY

[sugarwood]

Damon, none of those cars seem to be increasing the gap in the straights. Why are they not taking advantage of their strength?

[KTL]

It's because those CMC cars (Camaro Mustang Challenge) don't make a crapload of HP like the Firebird that started all this debating. See page 5

https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/4270/2016_CMC_Official_Rules.pdf

The blue Mustang in Damon's video is Audrey Z in a different American Iron class. They too don't make a monster amount of power. See page 4

https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/175/2016_AI_official_rules.pdf

She's actually a pretty decent driver. Overbrakes a bit but she has good situational awareness and drives predictably. I found myself trying to get by her quite a few times in my races. My 12:0 weight to power ratio was no match for her 9.5. But eventually I got by her and kept her behind me in areas like Damon showed at Putnam- higher speed turns where she didn't have as much grip (or wasn't maximizing her grip) and she didn't have enough straightaway to get back by me.

[sugarwood]

Damon's track certainly seems more suited for cornering advantage. Straights are short.