Impact Bumper vs 964

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by pmax

the Singer effect.

What is the singer effect in your opinion?

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Macroni

What is the singer effect in your opinion?

Demand from those who wouldn't even consider the 964 otherwise, those who think they can build one and others like it, or sell one to those who ...

[Kansas]

Originally Posted by pmax

Demand from those who wouldn't even consider the 964 otherwise, those who think they can build one and others like it, or sell one to those who ...

this

[Transcon]

Interesting discussion but IMHO the best 911 (aircooled or water) is the one sitting in your driveway waiting for the next drive. Personally I prefer the 3.2 with a 915 because thats what I have and checks all the boxes for me. Recently had the chance to babysit a friends 964 Turbo while he was overseas and as much as that has always been a dream car to me I was less than impressed and happy to hop back into my 3.2 (though I'll admit the boost of the turbo was fun)

No offense to the 964 crowd, if that was what was in my garage then I would be singing its praises I'd imagine. Happy driving...in whatever 911 you are in

[Cobalt]

First off they are all impact bumpers cars. The 964/993 has impact bumpers as well and if you don't know that you don't know your 911's. They had an awful ride height due to the 5 MPH impact bumper laws in the US which only added to their ugly duckling effect. The 74 aluminum impact bumpers was IMO an afterthought rushed into production to meet DOT regulations. They took the time to update the outdated bellows bumpers and use a modern style cover over the aluminum impact bar for the 964 and 993 instead of painting it. The lines of the front bumper are closer to that of the long nose cars than the G body is.

Sounds like jealousy if you ask me. Although any 911 in good running condition is a nice ride so why the need to dissect them and categorize them? The turbo cars take some time to get accustomed to and are very different than the N/A 911's same as a 930 is to the SC or 3.2's. Each has its own pros and cons.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Kansas

As much as I miss my 964 and regret selling it for half of what I they’re going for today, I can’t help but think I’d be looking at a $25k engine rebuild if I still owned it. Same goes for my old 993. I spoke to a well known air cooled Porsche mechanic who had been involved in Porsche racing innovations over the years. He said that the 964 and 993 have not aged well compared to the SCs and 3.2s. So much more expensive to maintain and needing tons more $$$ to get sorted after so many years.

Sorry what a crock. What mechanic sold you this line?

Many of the 964/993 top ends are unnecessary and we all know about the early 964 engines but if you think having a full rebuild on a 3.2 or SC is any cheaper and or needed less frequently then you have a lot to learn.

I work on these all the time and the 964 is IMO the easiest to work on. Any air cooled engine rebuild will set you back at least $20k these days and I have a couple of SC engines waiting for a full rebuild with about the same miles as a 964 would need one.

There are pros and cons to each model none are perfect all need some personal tweaks.

[r-mm]

Lol I agree what a crock

I do my own work for three reasons

1. I like it
2. It saves me money and I'm not a rich dude
3. I powerfully dislike breezy inherited wisdom and tired old hearsay trotted about "my uncle says you want to stay away from..."

I did a top end to the pistons inclusive of clutch and every last while you're in there on a 3.2 and 964. Cost was very close to being same.

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

why the need to dissect them and categorize them?

Its fun conversation and sometimes educational.... when I first showed up here it was 3.0 vs 3.2, G50 v 915, long hood vs short hood etc.... conversation has evolved with the crazy growth in value but it has the same flavor.

This is PMD, a section of Pelican established with the purpose of talking about the Porsche market and cars being sold into it; what dictates values in the market. Dissecting and categorizing is how we do it.

This tends to provoke nuanced discussion between iterations. Here we have subject matter experts.... example I would go to you to discuss 964s, Nathan to discuss early Carreras, numerous folks when it comes to IB Turbos. These gentlemen tend to be marketplace experts.

It is my opinion that there is a tremendous difference between similar models that calls to both the hobbyist and the sportsman. An owner of a shine and show concurs and the owner of Club Racer have different expectations and requirements.

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Each has its own pros and cons.

Thus the value of PMD to provide knowledge to make better decisions.....

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by macroni

its fun conversation and sometimes educational.... When i first showed up here it was 3.0 vs 3.2, g50 v 915, long hood vs short hood etc.... Conversation has evolved with the crazy growth in value but it has the same flavor.

This is pmd, a section of pelican established with the purpose of talking about the porsche market and cars being sold into it; what dictates values in the market. Dissecting and categorizing is how we do it.

This tends to provoke nuanced discussion between iterations. Here we have subject matter experts.... Example i would go to you to discuss 964s, nathan to discuss early carreras, numerous folks when it comes to ib turbos. These gentlemen tend to be marketplace experts.

It is my opinion, there is a tremendous difference between similar models that calls to both the hobbyist and the sportsman. An owner of a shine and show concurs and the owner of club racer have different expectations and requirements.



Thus the value of pmd to provide knowledge to make better decisions.....

qft.

[ShopCat]

I guess the only solution is to have one of each...

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Macroni

Its fun conversation and sometimes educational.... when I first showed up here it was 3.0 vs 3.2, G50 v 915, long hood vs short hood etc.... conversation has evolved with the crazy growth in value but it has the same flavor.

This is PMD, a section of Pelican established with the purpose of talking about the Porsche market and cars being sold into it; what dictates values in the market. Dissecting and categorizing is how we do it.

This tends to provoke nuanced discussion between iterations. Here we have subject matter experts.... example I would go to you to discuss 964s, Nathan to discuss early Carreras, numerous folks when it comes to IB Turbos. These gentlemen tend to be marketplace experts.

It is my opinion that there is a tremendous difference between similar models that calls to both the hobbyist and the sportsman. An owner of a shine and show concurs and the owner of Club Racer have different expectations and requirements.



Thus the value of PMD to provide knowledge to make better decisions.....

I like a good debate as much as the next guy and I agree it can be fun conversation. Lately more than ever though the need to dissect and categorize each iteration seems to be a big topic. Maybe it is the new what is the value thread. Now it is which one is best? To me there are many similarities and I don't only work on just 964's I work on every form of 911, 928, 944, 986, 981 etc from the early SWB cars to the current and latest 992's. I happen to prefer the 964 myself it is full of flaws as are they all.

I just picked up an 83 944 for a friend and we will be restoring it to like new condition. He is on a strict budget and he wanted to get in on the ground level and was happy to help. At least I hope I am not doing him a disservice.

Not so sure that some of these topics help anyone but might actually create more of a divide and seem to be filled with comments based on lore. I think pointing out the pros of one over another is great conversation but somehow it seems to turn to bashing one over the other. Reminds me of the 80's when my 928 brothers would argue that it was a superior ride over the 911 or 944 or whichever way you want to play it.

[Wphelps]

I am a mechanic full time not a DIY guy
The 964 tub is light years ahead of the 911
If you have to ask why then your just a talking head
Later

[Wphelps]

That’s not nice, sorry

Just one tit bit the 964 has 5,000 spot welds
Of those over 4,000 are done with robots, that’s right 1989, not as advanced as today’s robotics of course. That means very close tolerances are met and by design it becomes an outstanding tub for building a race car on....
Many other things happened at Porsche staring in 1989

[Mocker]

Pick a handle and stick with it, wollet. What a plonker.

[Wphelps]

Joe napolitano told me to tell you
Hi

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Wphelps

That’s not nice, sorry

Just one tit bit the 964 has 5,000 spot welds
Of those over 4,000 are done with robots, that’s right 1989, not as advanced as today’s robotics of course. That means very close tolerances are met and by design it becomes an outstanding tub for building a race car on....
Many other things happened at Porsche staring in 1989

Funny you say that I was helping with the repair of a 912 prototype yesterday that has extensive repair needed and it seemed as though someone went spot weld crazy on it. I do agree that the tolerances of the 964 are much better than the earlier 911's but nothing like todays machines. When I started my slick top conversion on the 964 using the factory skins we had to make a fixture to verify that nothing changed in the process and when comparing the 964 to other 964's they were quite close the older cars were all over the place. What you really notice is the construction methods and the materials used are superior. Although the tooling for the roof skins are showing their age. The corners just aren't as crisp as they were and need some attention before paint.

[paul_howey]

Interesting discussion but this is really apples and oranges. As it’s been stated already, most of the “vs” discussions on the forums have been more direct comparisons. Such as 3.0 vs 3.2 or 915 vs G50 or F vs G.

The 964, which is basically a completely different car, has more in common with the 993 than the G body cars.

Personally, I favor F and G body cars while other will be drawn to 964’s and 993’s.

As far as the market goes, the 964 up until recently was fairly obtainable at reasonable prices. Similar to SC’s, the 964 has skyrocketed as has pretty much every 911.

I imagine the market will remain strong moving forward on both but I personally believe there are more buyers seeking out 74-89 models given the volume of cars built during this period and the lack of good inventory available.

[r-mm]

I didn't intend this to be a discussion of the merits of the impact vs 964 cars just their prices. It seems a "garden variety" = ~60-150k miles, honest driver, normal colors impact coupe sells every ten minutes so I get a good sense of where their values are at but the only 964s I'm seeing are Cup cars, super low mile unicorns, convertibles, etc. Intent was to figure out if the "garden variety" 100k mi driver black on black G50 vs 964 coupe are... parity? one presently valued higher? Just a tire kickey idle mind question.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by r-mm

I didn't intend this to be a discussion of the merits of the impact vs 964 cars just their prices. It seems a "garden variety" = ~60-150k miles, honest driver, normal colors impact coupe sells every ten minutes so I get a good sense of where their values are at but the only 964s I'm seeing are Cup cars, super low mile unicorns, convertibles, etc. Intent was to figure out if the "garden variety" 100k mi driver black on black G50 vs 964 coupe are... parity? one presently valued higher? Just a tire kickey idle mind question.

You won't see many 964's for sale as most who have purchased theirs already are keeping them and the only cars left are those rarities that the owners are trying to cash in on. There are very few 964 coupes in the US to start with so pickings are slim. I passed on a red/blk 89 C4 964 the other day as I have too many projects. The car was reasonable money due to a divorce and the court was selling it for a quick sale but the car had so many needs it would have been tough even for a flip at $35k and only 90k miles. My hesitation to buy proved that you grab it or it is gone. The car ended up selling for $45k and had another $35k in work needed at cost without addressing the cosmetic needs.

You have to figure you will be into any 964 for at least $75k most likely more these days in the end. Either pay up front or down the line but you will be at the same price point eventually.

[creaturecat]

my theory, one factor:
dealers snatched up/snatch up the inexpensive/semi inexpensive 964's.
that's why the dealer section of Pelican's "cars for sale" is wayyyy overrepresented with 964 variants.
helps drive prices upward - the profit motive.

respectfully - the 964 being easier to work on? certainly hasn't been my experience - even something as simple as an oil change is a miserable experience, comparatively speaking. : )