$$Going once going twice$$

[Carl Bauer]

Here's his '59 GS-GT from the 2005 356 East Coast Holiday:



and his '57 Speedster from the same event...

[TomTurtle]

I expect its not all his cars, but here's the link to the Ingram Collection:
http://www.ingramcollection.com/

I do know he has a beautiful one of yellow 911 CS that's not pictured.

[mobius911]

Interesting thread! I own (or at least think I own...) a real RS. I purchased it in 1984, have the original German title (it stays with the car), the Gruber/Konradsheim book, and everything matches. But I would still love to get it verified by the "Factory". Does Porsche even do this? Sure, I can get the Cardex, but as people have noted, without a direct inspection what value is that?

After 22 years this car is basically part of the family, but these values are getting so high that I have to admit I've considered selling. And I have considered Ebay, not wanting to go through the cost and hassle of the auctions.

And while we have castigated the good Dr. for being unwilling to share all the car's info, I wonder whether he has a point about not sharing the kneepad production number. With VINs, engine numbers, etc. publicly known, it strikes me as sensible not to reveal the few hidden details that could verify the car's provenance. Of course, with another 406 out there he is at a distinct disadvantage already...

I was just in a bookstore browsing the latest issue of a magazine called something like 911 and Porsche World, published in the UK. It had an article on an RS that had been used as a racecar in Belgium, then gone through a series of owners and various modifications. When the author began the restoration, it had the wrong engine, so he got a blank case, built up the engine, and had it stamped with the original engine number. Apparently this was all done with Porsche's approval. It strikes me as surprising that this would be allowed, given that the original engine is probably still floating around somewhere. At the end of the day it does make one question what exactly is "original".

[jorian]

Jeff,

Your post is quite a tease. I think I speak for the group when I demand to see pics of your fine auto!

If I had a real RS, I too might be tempted to cash in but then what to do with the cash?

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by mobius911
I was just in a bookstore browsing the latest issue of a magazine called something like 911 and Porsche World, published in the UK. It had an article on an RS that had been used as a racecar in Belgium, then gone through a series of owners and various modifications. When the author began the restoration, it had the wrong engine, so he got a blank case, built up the engine, and had it stamped with the original engine number. Apparently this was all done with Porsche's approval. It strikes me as surprising that this would be allowed, given that the original engine is probably still floating around somewhere. At the end of the day it does make one question what exactly is "original".

Porsche has, in the past, sold replacement crankcases that are furnished without an engine number. You then supposedly stamp your engine number onto the block. I doubt that Porsche condoned this particular action, but readily sold the engine case without a number. Actually, knowing what I do about the factory these days, I doubt they even gave a 2nd thought to it. They just don't really care about the older cars too much...

-Wayne

[GothingNC]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
Porsche has, in the past, sold replacement crankcases that are furnished without an engine number. You then supposedly stamp your engine number onto the block. I doubt that Porsche condoned this particular action, but readily sold the engine case without a number. Actually, knowing what I do about the factory these days, I doubt they even gave a 2nd thought to it. They just don't really care about the older cars too much...

-Wayne

VW has sold replacement air-cooled engine cases without numbers in the past too. It caused a lot of problems in CA when CARB made some changes for the emission testing that required the car to have the correct case # with the car to pass inspection.
No number, no pass or if you had a 67 VW with a 75 case you had to pass emissions as a 75 year model.

They changed the rules about 6 months later.

[TRE Cup]

yeah, but new cases come with the cast in production dates, so an expert can tell the date range of that block.

of course the clever forgerer can find a blank early sale case --proverbial needle in the haystack- and use a set of stamps for the holy grail matching numbers, or find a date ranged case, weld up the number areas , and restamp - unless you know how to spot this, it would easily fool most

[Wayne 962]

Looks like this car has shown up again:

http://www.fantasyjunction.com/used-cars.php?id=8e2e0ca4936225e71495788a37755465

This time with better pics. I phoned Spencer at Fantasy Junction (they have a good reputation), and he said he would be happy to perform any sheet metal measurement tests that were necessary to prove / disprove the authenticity of this car. The car is currently on consignment from the owner (same guy listed in the eBay auction).

Did anyone hear back from the fellow who owned the other one in Austrailia or New Zealand?

-Wayne

[jkarolyi]

Those numbers stamped into the trunk latch plate do NOT look like they came from Dr. Porsche's establishment! I've had two 1973s and they both had four-row VIN plates with the VIN number stamped on the left side. And the stampings looked MUCH less crisp than this one.

I'd give them $20,000 for it...a pretty nice fake don't you think?

[jkarolyi]

My former '73 911T:

[jkarolyi]

Does this look right?

[fryardds]

Wayne,

Thanks for posting the link to detailed photos of the car. Now we can clearly see this car is a fabrication.

Here is the engine serial # stamping.



Note the problems with several characters like the star size and the '3' and '4' when compared with several real RS engine stampings.

[fryardds]

Now lets look at the aluminum tag and compare it with several others from real RS cars.

[CBRacerX]

That engine number certainly looks different~!

[fryardds]

This has been shown before but it is worthwhile to repeat it. As mentioned above, the front trunk VIN stamping is wrong also.



Here are some real ones.

[C-Pierce]

WOW that is mind boggling, someone will go that far to fake it...
give em credit they worked hard to work someone hard!

I am such a small fry....
Maybe I could restamp my 76 S as an SC and get 15 grand for it...

C

[fryardds]

Oh and one more thing (okay two things). This tunk lid was never on a first series RS. There should be no underside sound insulating material under the paint. A homolgation RS has a smooth surface not the pebbled appearance shown on this car.



Should look like this.



The same can be said for the engine bay. It should be smooth on the side rails in a real RS not like this car shows.




Should look like this.

[70SATMan]

Originally posted by fryardds
Here is the engine serial # stamping.

You can also see where the case detail is gone on the bottom of the flat and the pronounced sway in the center from the grinding away of the original serial number. It doesn't even look like it started out as an unstamped case.

[cegerer]

OK, so there're a few {cough} 'minor' {cough} issues .... .... the car may be worth $183K just on notoriety by now - i.e own the car everybody's talking about!

Brian - you back on US soil?

[fryardds]

Yeah we are back and very jet lagged, but had a great time.

It certainly is notorious now and with a more elorborate story too.