Help me make sense of the market . . .

[matthew-s]

I'm trying to make sense of the market, and I see two common themes:

"All 911's are 20k cars. Pay that up-front, or pay it over time in repairs"

and

"You can get great 3.2 911's for $15,000 all day long"

Naturally, it seems like the sellers lean towards the first statement, and buyers towards the second.

I'm getting serious about the purchase of a 3.2 911. Not serious about a specific car yet, but serious in my search.

How should a buyer look at this contending conventional wisdom? Discuss.

[ghost1001]

I can say 2 things for sure….”no, they are not “all” $20k cars” and “no, you cannot buy “great” $15k 3.2’s all day long”

I personally do not follow “conventional wisdom” the problem is that it is far too general to be of any use.

First let me say that we are in the same region, you are local to me, I recently purchased a 1976 911s but looked at any ’74-’89 cars I could find, and I have followed the market as a buyer for some time.

My advice would be:
1) To become as much of an expert about the particular year range that you are looking at. This board is an incredible resource for that.

2) Look at and drive as many cars as possible. I know that this is hard given our location.

3) Define tight criteria to minimize risk, number of owners, service records, no modification, PPI results.

4) Be realistic about your budget and cash reserves for repairs or your ability/desire to make repairs yourself.

These statements are fact based on my experience…

These cars are very expensive to fix and replce parts on even if you can do the work yourself.

Selection is limited in the NE, seems that you can get better cars for less on the west coast, so supply and demand comes into play.

“Great” used 911’s are few and far between. In fact “any” used 911’s worth looking at are few and far between.

Serious sellers price cars to SELL.

The broader the net…the better the catch; expand your search to include other years if possible.

I looked on and off for 2-3 years and then seriously for 3 months. I posted a WTB here on the for sale section and found exactly what I wanted 15 minutes from my home.

It is a good time to buy IF you can find a good car.

Feel free to PM me if you want a second opinion. I do not have a ton of experience as some here do. If you find a car call Gene at ******** in Chatham and have him look it over, he will give you the real deal.

Kevin

[matthew-s]

Thanks Kevin. I've been following your build - I really like where you are going with it.

I actually dropped in to speak with Gene a week or two ago - just to meet him and get some advice. It was helpful.

I've been considering posting a "WTB" - I guess it can't hurt. I'd rather get a car not far from here for a variety of reasons. I recognize that it puts me at a slight disadvantage.

I've driven two SC's, and a 3.2 so far. I liked the 3.2 quite a lot.

I'm fairly handy, although I don't have the tools or space to do "big work" (engine or gearbox rebuilds). I think I can tackle many other projects - but your advice on even parts cost is appreciated.

Thanks for the offer to chat off-line. I'll take you up on that should it make sense to do so.

- Matt

[Macroni]

I have a pelican friend who in the last year purchased a beautiful 1978 ROW SC Targa for $8,500. The car needed minimal work. Values are out there you just need to be patient in your hunt.

Is there a financial rule of thumb? No, but there is a marketplace as far as value. Develop your budget. The amount of money you spend on a car is a combination of many elements. The most critical being your goals for the car. What will you feel comfortable driving and what is your long term objective? Many here have spent $20,000 on engine rebuilds.

There are many very nice cars out there. Like always there will be many values and many overpriced. It is up to you to be patient enough to become knowledgeable of the market. I would continue to vet all your potentials here as there are many experienced pelicans who will steer you straight. No matter what make sure you get a PPI [pre purchase inspection] it is critical if you are new to the marque and will save you thousands.

I am across the river and could be of assistance if needed.

[matthew-s]

Thanks - I recognize there is no formula here. It was pointing out two common themes I see on this board, which now that I am seriously looking, have made it harder for me to price the cars I'm looking at.

I'm really just looking to make sure I pay fair market value. I know I'll be assuming maintenance, etc. I just think if I get a car like this, and take care of it, I should be able to sell it for what I bought it for, so long as I don't buy too high!

[VincentVega]

It's a car. Buy one to enjoy it not to get your $$ back when you get bored.

[Sunroof]

Interesting Thread...........

I have been a Porsche owner for over 35 years having owned a 1973.5T, 1974, 1979SC and 1985.5 944. All these cars were southern cars. I have often recommended that folks explore the Atlanta, GA market for used Porsches. Surprisingly, the Georgia market is second to California and the abundance of cars for sale is worth exploring. The advantages? We drive our cars year round and do not have to contend with salted roads or for the most part rust issues as readily as in other regions. The great majority of Porsche owners I know here take great care of their cars. If you identified a few cars to look at down here, the shops for a PPI are excellent. Just send a thread on where to go for a PPI and many Georgia owners will chime in.

I do not work for the Chamber of Commerce, brokers, dealerships, repair shops, Autotrader or any organization that pushes Porsche or has a vested interested in Georgia (actually I am a displayed yankee from Chicago!). Overall however, I see the Atlanta Porsche market as strong and the mild winters, no salted roads and year-round managed care should be a consideration.

Just my 2-cents.

Good luck in your searches

Bob
73.5T

[cellison]

Originally Posted by Sunroof

Interesting Thread...........

I have been a Porsche owner for over 35 years having owned a 1973.5T, 1974, 1979SC and 1985.5 944. All these cars were southern cars. I have often recommended that folks explore the Atlanta, GA market for used Porsches. Surprisingly, the Georgia market is second to California and the abundance of cars for sale is worth exploring. The advantages? We drive our cars year round and do not have to contend with salted roads or for the most part rust issues as readily as in other regions. The great majority of Porsche owners I know here take great care of their cars. If you identified a few cars to look at down here, the shops for a PPI are excellent. Just send a thread on where to go for a PPI and many Georgia owners will chime in.

I do not work for the Chamber of Commerce, brokers, dealerships, repair shops, Autotrader or any organization that pushes Porsche or has a vested interested in Georgia (actually I am a displayed yankee from Chicago!). Overall however, I see the Atlanta Porsche market as strong and the mild winters, no salted roads and year-round managed care should be a consideration.

Just my 2-cents.

Good luck in your searches

Bob
73.5T

i agree with most of what you say Bob, but:

1. ) it seems to me there are not alot of the air cooled 911s for sale at any given time in this area gien ATL is a huge Porsche market and the NA headquarters are here. seems to me I see alot more FS in Florida and Texas. Yes there are alot of Boxsters and 996s FS in the area.

2.) you can drive them year round...except for today. i can't get any of the cars out today due to the ice in the driveway.

[racer]

I generally agree with the $20K maxim. Cars offered at or above better be, imho, perfect examples. Most cars in the $12-16K range will need something, and that is why a PPI is a great bargaining tool if issues are found (missing tool kits, worn suspensions, tired engines, rust, worn interior, drooping headliners, etc etc.). If you are handy, then some of these things aren't a concern and open up the "lower priced" cars. If you have to pay a shop $100/hr to fix some of these, then well, it adds up very quickly. Would you rather start with a better example (and pay a premium for it)?

As you also have noticed, given the cars ages and various conditions, there is no easy pricing guide. G50s are supposed to be worth more than a 915 car. Cars with recent quality rebuilds should be worth more than 150K mile examples that smoke oil. Then muddle in the Coupe/Targa/Cab and Widebody differences as to value.

on a plus side, you know what you want.. if I was faced with say, a 20K budget, I'd be trying all kinds of Porsches.. 911, 964, 996, Boxster(S), modified 914s etc.

[murphyjp]

I to have noticed the inconsistencies in the 80's 911 market. I've seen low mileage examples for $16-$19k, and then seen 110k-200k cars with little to now records in the $20k+ range. Makes no sense. Take a look at A***trader and you will see huge price swings. I've been trying to make sense of this too.

It seems a well documented car is hard to come by these days. Most adds I've seen list "some records available"

There is a certain fear with finding the right car. super low mileage cars can have issues from sitting too long. 75k-100k cars can be original, untouched, on the verge of needing a rebuild, but you know some hack of a mechanic has not screwed anything up. Then you've got the cars that have had some engine work done, and you must hope the mech had a clue.

And they all seem to be about the same price range.

[matthew-s]

Originally Posted by murphyjp

I to have noticed the inconsistencies in the 80's 911 market. . . .

I'd tend to agree with your post. I think our best hope is a thorough PPI by a person that knows the cars. I'd like to think (hope?) it can mitigate most of the concerns that come with a lack of documentation.

I kind of wonder where all the beautiful mid-teens cars are that people talk about on this board. They are either hiding for the spring, they are very opportunistic purchases, wishful thinking, or a combination.

I suppose it's all about what you value (money vs. time searching vs. quality). At some point, you just jump in with both feet.

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by matthew-s

I kind of wonder where all the beautiful mid-teens cars are that people talk about on this board.

Midteens to twenty thousand....

Here is one:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/519694-1987-porsche-targa-grey-grey-13-950-a.html

Here is another:
1983 911SC RoW Cabriolet

Another:
1986 PORSCHE CARRERA 911--VERY CLEAN and CHEAP

Another:
FS - 1982 911SC Targa CLEAN 57K miles

Another:
Fs: 1982 911sc

Another:
Porsche 911 88 3.2 G50 Carrera Coupe D.Gray/ White 7/9 Fuchs $10.2k


This is just in the first two pages of the cars for sale here on Pelican. There are at least 50 in the back of Panorama (PCA Mag) not all meet your financial requirements but asking price tends in my experience to be a starting point of negotiations. unless you are at a Saturn dealership!

[matthew-s]

Originally Posted by Macroni

Midteens to twenty thousand....

Another:
1986 PORSCHE CARRERA 911--VERY CLEAN and CHEAP

True, and those are all good examples.

I'm looking for coupes exclusively, and of those you pointed out, the one above is closest to what I am looking for (and interestingly reasonably close to one I am looking at) - price is not too far off of the one I'm looking at (which is more expensive, but based on looks / description, is also in better condition.

[floete]

I just posted this over on Rennlist but it seems like it might have some applicability here too:

Okay, here's my slapdash market analysis, just performed using eBay for the data, since eBay's the only place you can get actual selling prices. This in unscientific and could be wwway off base. Even so and nonethelesss:

Under completed listings, I found 35 911 SC cars. Of those, 19 were outliers and need not concern this analysis (i.e., they were special, like a Weissach coupe, or insanely low miles and the like). Of the remaining 16 cars, only TWO sold, one for 10k and one for 9.5k.

I don't know about you, but I find this kind of astounding.

The remaining cars either had reserves that no one broke through or had high Buy It Now prices. I mean, there were cars in which bidding only reached 6.2K in one case, 8.1K in another, 8.8k in another, 9.3k in another, 11.3k in another (woo woo!), 8.85k in another.

It seems to me those bidding figures are the amounts the cars would actually find buyers at, so those numbers are in my mind the going prices … if you want to sell your car today. At least according to this probably flawed analysis.

So, taking the maximum amounts bid, plus the two winning bids, adding them all together and dividing by the total number, we get a real-world, 'this is what these cars are worth right now and not a cent more' average price of … (wait for it, wait for it) $9000.

I mean, according to my analysis, if my guy put his car on eBay with a reserve price anywhere north of 10k, he would not get a single bid (as is the case with many of the cars on there).

Of course, I'm not taking into account this and that and various and sundry and so forth and so on; but we're talking big picture here. And, according to at least this big picture, this is a mighty bleak time for sellers. Or, more accurately, eBay sellers, but then again they are the only sellers we have $ numbers for.

Thoughts? Probably my logic is more full of holes than Swiss cheese but as of this second it's making sense. I reserve the right to change my mind at another second's notice.

(And if you wondered why many of the sellers on Pelican are continually having to lower their prices and bump their posts, maybe now you know. Or don't. I dunno. My brain is hurting ...)

[GothingNC]

Two Targas just sold in my area.

86 with 55,000 miles for $18,000 - Excellent Condition
87 with 44,000 for $25,000 - Excellent Condition, leaving the country

Plenty out there in "ok" condition for less but I noticed the premium examples for a collector are getting scarce

[Cal44]

Here is my useless opinion. I too am a coupe only person. It is also my belief that Carreras
'84 thru '89 are Porsches best effort and that is my focus. It is so hard to find a good non messed with coupe with records.
I used to think a low mileage P car was the only one to buy, I was wrong. There is an '84 residing in my garage that I let sit for nine months with only a start once a month.
I noticed it started an occasional drip from a return tube......what the hell?, it didn't leak before.
Started driving it, drip stopped. Note to self..........drive it
The search for a proper car can be lengthy and once purchased there are no guarntees. Are the prices all over the map?, indeed they are.
I believe there are good cars being saved (not for sale) for a later date as the Carreras have yet to see the proper attention from the buying public. I often tell my wife that if I could afford a warehouse I would fill the thing full of these vehicles.
Am I wrong? probably.
Don't hesitate to spend extra money for the one you want, be it a SC or Carrera. It is well worth it in the long run.
Keeping them bone stock is not always easy and presents a challenge to the owner as some parts are just not available any longer.
Take a deep breath, take your time and buy right.

[NewfieMZ3]

Buy the nicest one you can find.......low miles, history, service docs, good PPI. It will cost you otherwise. If you pay 15, you get a 15 car, or worse. I just paid 20+ for an low milage ( 46K ) 88 Targa, yes Targa LOL, but it is original , one owner, and all complete. So you will either get what you pay for or worse, do your home work.

[techweenie]

The downside of using eBay pricing is that a lot of eBay shoppers will place a maximum bid of 80-85% of market value as a hedge against undisclosed problems. After all, the best cars rarely make it to eBay. We all know any paint job can be attractive in a photo, and selective camera angles can leave cracked dashes and torn upholstery just out of frame. Few ads have front pan/floor pan photos, and those that do often avoid problem areas.

The best cars sell quietly. And mostly locally -- with the exception of European buyers. Everything here is 'on sale' for them and the pre-galvanized cars are worth a serious premium in the EU.

[murphyjp]

Macroni;5127892]Midteens to twenty thousand....

Here is one:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/519694-1987-porsche-targa-grey-grey-13-950-a.html

Have been eyeing this one. A little search here shows it's been for sale at least since August. Originally started at $15.9k. Makes me wonder what's wrong with it. Trying to find out though.

[matthew-s]

Originally Posted by murphyjp

Have been eyeing this one. A little search here shows it's been for sale at least since August. Originally started at $15.9k. Makes me wonder what's wrong with it. Trying to find out though.

Indeed. It seems like there must be a story there.

It photographs well, the price is amazing, especially for an 1987, and the sport seats are a great option.