Anyone catch the debate last night?

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

If so, what'd you think?

I (admittedly) only caught parts of it, but I have to say I was terribly unimpressed with Romney. . . All fluff and talking points, typical grandstanding politician who didn't answer his questions - just saying what his political advisors obviously told him people want to hear. I did agree with his stance on illegal immigration though, but he continually ducked the question about how to pay for a multi-billion-dollar wall along the U.S./Mexico border - and his calling a few billion $$$ as "nothing" a bit scary (can we say, "run up the national debt more than Reagan and Bush combined"?)

Tancredo seemed dead-on in his replies, but came off as a bit. . . well. . . "un-presidential". Giulliani also seemed dead-on, but I wonder if he's really got a chance. Can you imagine if the general election ended up Giuliani versus Clinton? Erk. I just threw up in my mouth a little - a choice of nothing but rich New Yorkers. Puke.

Oh well, curious to hear what others thought - particularly those that saw the entire thing.

Also, I could've sworn I saw Racerblvd in the background a couple of times, but it must be coincidence (or was it?) All them white dudes look the same, right?

frogger · 09-06-2007, 04:55 AM

The Paul / Huckabee exchange on staying in Iwreck was interesting.

legion · 09-06-2007, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogger

The Paul / Huckabee exchange on staying in Iwreck was interesting.

Care to summarize? I was in welding class last night...

frogger · 09-06-2007, 05:18 AM

Here's the transcript of their exchange. I agree with Dr. Paul, but I'm sure others do not. That's cool.

MR. HUCKABEE: We have to continue the surge. And let me explain why, Chris. When I was a little kid, if I went into a store with my mother, she had a simple rule for me. If I picked something off the shelf of the store and I broke it, I bought it.

I learned don’t pick something off the shelf I can’t afford to buy.

Well, what we did in Iraq, we essentially broke it. It’s our responsibility to do the best we can to try to fix it before we just turn away because something is at stake. Senator McCain made a great point, and let me make this clear. If there’s anybody on this stage that understands the word honor, I’ve got to say Senator McCain understands that word -- (applause, cheers) -- because he has given his country a sacrifice the rest of us don’t even comprehend. (Continued applause.)

And on this issue, when he says we can’t leave until we’ve left with honor, I 100 percent agree with him because, Congressman, whether or not we should have gone to Iraq is a discussion that historians can have, but we’re there. We bought it because we broke it. We’ve got a responsibility to the honor of this country and to the honor of every man and woman who has served in Iraq and ever served in our military to not leave them with anything less than the honor that they deserve. (Cheers, applause.)

MR. HUME: Go ahead. You wanted to respond? He just addressed you; you go ahead and respond. (Continued applause.)

REP. PAUL: The American people didn’t go in. A few people advising this administration, a small number of people called the neoconservative hijacked our foreign policy. They’re responsible, not the American people. They’re not responsible. We shouldn’t punish them. (Cheers, applause.)

MR. HUCKABEE: Congressman, we are one nation. We can’t be divided. We have to be one nation under God. That means if we make a mistake, we make it as a single country, the United States of America, not the divided states of America. (Cheers.)

REP. PAUL: No. When we make a mistake -- (interrupted by applause) -- when we make a mistake, it is the obligation of the people through their representatives to correct the mistake, not to continue the mistake! (Cheers, applause.)

MR. HUCKABEE: And that’s what we do on the floor of the --

REP. PAUL: No! We’ve dug a hole for ourselves and we dug a hole for our party!

We’re losing elections and we’re going down next year if we don’t change it, and it has all to do with foreign policy, and we have to wake up to this fact.

MR. HUCKABEE: Even if we lose elections, we should not lose our honor, and that is more important to the Republican Party.

REP. PAUL: We’re losing -- we’ve lost over -- (cheers, applause) -- we have lost -- we have lost 5,000 Americans killed in -- we’ve lost over 5,000 Americans over there in Afghanistan and Iraq and plus the civilians killed. How many more do you want to lose? How long are we going to be there? How long -- what do we have to pay to save face? That’s all we’re doing is saving face. It’s time we came home!

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

Thank you for posting the transcript. Ron Paul speaks for me on this issue.

frogger · 09-06-2007, 06:25 AM

My opinion is that we're trying to save (Bush's) face now more than anything else. Just like Nixon during the last part of our war in Vietnam. I feel so bad for the troops and their families. They give so much for our country.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

The exchange between Paul and Huckabee was a great moment. I agree with them both, Paul in theory and Huckabee in reality. Those few seconds were one of the very few REAL debates we've had in recent memory. I think Huckabee will become top-tier. He is just dead on with his answers, never panders or makes speeches instead of giving answers and I think he got the most consistent applause every time he opened his mouth. Romney didn't do much for me. Sounded like his heart was in the right place, but just not as real or impressive as the others. McCain was totally outgunned. Why is he still in it? Why does he insult my intelligence by saying things like we don't torture terrorist suspects, because it might give them an excuse to torture our captured soldiers? When's the last time a U.S. soldier was NOT tortured because his captors respected the way we treat our captives?

legion · 09-06-2007, 06:36 AM

I disagree. I can't see how any reasonable person can think that leaving Iraq right now will somehow make it better for us or for them. Leaving could lead immediately to an all-out war in the middle east. At the very least, the country will devolve into a civil war--and I have little confidence that Iran and Syria will mind their own business (they are not now). I like Huckabee's analogy, because leaving Iraq is like stuffing an iPod you broke into your pocket and running out the door: running away compounds the issues, it does not solve them.

I'd really like to hear someone explain how leaving immediately turns Iraq into a stable place and doesn't come back, to bite us.

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogger

My opinion is that we're trying to save (Bush's) face now more than anything else. Just like Nixon during the last part of our war in Vietnam. I feel so bad for the troops and their families. They give so much for our country.

From the time Nixon decided to withdraw from Vietnam and the time he actually did, 23,000 more Americans died to 'save face.' I think we're smarter about political posturing now than we were then -- at least some of us are.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion

I disagree. I can't see how any reasonable person can think that leaving Iraq right now will somehow make it better for us or for them. Leaving could lead immediately to an all-out war in the middle east. At the very least, the country will devolve into a civil war--and I have little confidence that Iran and Syria will mind their own business (they are not now). I like Huckabee's analogy, because leaving Iraq is like stuffing an iPod you broke into your pocket and running out the door: running away compounds the issues, it does not solve them.

I'd really like to hear someone explain how leaving immediately turns Iraq into a stable place and doesn't come back, to bite us.

I don't think Paul claimed leaving Iraq now was gonna make it a better place. His attitude was it's not our problem. Huckabee's was "we broke it, we bought it." Paul countered by saying it was the people's duty to correct previous mistakes through their elected representatives. He also mentioned how much we spent on the FBI and CIA and what little we got for it. I thought it was a classic Libertarian argument and probably most in line with what the founding fathers would have thought. However, I agree that Huckabee's response was far more practical and realistic.

frogger · 09-06-2007, 06:42 AM

Chris, it doesn't help Iraq. They don't seem to want to be helped based on the unwillingness or incompetence of their elected government. Sorry, but I value our men and women over there much more than I value any Iraqi.

I generally find Dr. Paul the best choice out of the GOP, though we differ on a few positions. Huckabee's you break it you bought it comment was predicated on being able to afford to buy it. So far, none of these fellows have shown me how they can afford to buy it (draft, big, big budget outlays for the military, military planning to win, not just keep the lid on things, etc.).

legion · 09-06-2007, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogger

Chris, it doesn't help Iraq. They don't seem to want to be helped based on the unwillingness or incompetence of their elected government. Sorry, but I value our men and women over there much more than I value any Iraqi.

Okay, now I understand where you are coming from. I can't say that I disagree with that statement. However, I think we may find ourselves involved in a much higher-intensity conflict in the middle east if we leave Iraq--costing many more American lives. The trick is to let the current government of Iraq know that there are consequences for not taking charge without opening an opportunity for Syria and Iran. At this point, I think the best option might be to withhold funding from their government.

frogger · 09-06-2007, 06:54 AM

Could be. I just don't know anymore.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

There will always be a valid debate as to whether we should keep helping the Iraqis. The bottom line, though, is that we can stick it out now, while we're already there or we can abandon them and then have to return when the costs and consequences could be far greater. Anyone read Clancy's Executive Orders, where Iran and Iraq merge? How easy a job would it be for us to deal with that scenario once we're all out of theater? It could happen. What are the chances Turkey and the Kurds get into it if we leave? Think we'll be able to stay out of that one too?

frogger · 09-06-2007, 06:58 AM

Clancy's a fiction writer. Real people, real American men and women are dying for a face saving.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogger

Clancy's a fiction writer. Real people, real American men and women are dying for a face saving.

Oh, I forgot that. His stories are so far-fetched - crashing a jetliner into the US Capitol, Russkies wanting to defect, Muslim terrorists trying to acquire nukes, al Qaeda agents sneaking into the US across the Mexican border....yeah, none of that could ever really happen.

frogger · 09-06-2007, 07:10 AM

I'm just trying to keep it real. No offense.

kach22i · kach22i's Garage

I have yet to see any new ideas beside stay the course and bleed, or leave altogether.

THE BIG IDEA:

Turkey becomes an official liaison/mentor for a Kurdish state within an Iraqi federation.

Syria and Saudi Arabia become an official liaison/mentor for a Sunni state within an Iraqi federation.

Iran becomes an official liaison/mentor for a Shia state within an Iraqi federation.

Make all the bad guys and outside influences mainstream, official and monitored (UN?).

Just a crazy idea but I think Muslims should deal with their own problems and leave the west of it.

Traditionally the west has done everything possible to keep a united middle east from forming, even before the creation of Israel. This too must change.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Why do you think Turkey would be a good mentor? They are mortal enemies of the Kurds.

kach22i · kach22i's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Why do you think Turkey would be a good mentor? They are mortal enemies of the Kurds.

Greece was made the liaison/mentor for Turkey to enter the European Union..................provide a format for former enemies to cooperate, it's worked many times throughout history.

Hasn't it?

All the countries I've listed are the most likely to screw it up for that paticular ethnic/religoius sect. Instead of keeping them at bay, open the doors and be open about it all.

Open doors let in fresh air.