Cis monster

zcoker · 01-26-2009, 07:23 PM

I don't know if this site has been posted here before and it probably has yet I've never come across it: 627HP@5300 Torque: 658Lb/Ft(892Nm)@4600 on mainly stock 930 Euro components and on pump gas - well, 98 octane over there.

http://www.spezialmotorer.com/ Click under project section.

I know that many here place solid limits on the CIS system and I'm just learning about it myself but this says otherwise.

If I know the Swedes like I do with bmw's, this is true information. We doubted a long time their claims on some of their bmw motors but they have some s38's over there pushing 1500hp and running 7's in the 1/4 mile - varied. I guess those long, cold winters over there afford them plenty of time to tinker and build these monsters. Very interesting to see some things taking way beyond the norm (like they always seem to do) in spite of the speculation and doubts. I sure would like to see more info on this build but the Swedes are quite tight lipped with their projects.

Craig 930 RS · 01-26-2009, 07:49 PM

How'd they get the TQ & HP to intersect at 4900 instaead of 5250?
Must be some new Suh-vedish law of measurement.

Kidding aside, looks like that shop has some pretty cool projects -

RarlyL8 · RarlyL8's Garage

I've followed this fellow for a few years. Cool stuff!

9dreizig · 01-26-2009, 08:18 PM

Ok someone enlighten me,, I thought you ran out of fuel with the stock CIS ( even the Euro version).. it can't be that easy right?

Craig 930 RS · 01-26-2009, 10:07 PM

Myth. Absolute bunk. With an IA fuel head, most will have more than required.
You DO get unbalanced air delvery from the funky manifold -

9dreizig · 01-26-2009, 10:15 PM

What about the injectors ? those need to be changed I assume ?
BTW Craig,, I'm putting a trip together to Seattel again in a couple weeks,, and will have plenty of time to finally get a ride in your beast...

juicersr · juicersr's Garage

Seems like the only time i ever hear about this guy is via his website. Does anyone actually HAVE any of his motors or stuff to verify his numbers??? I did email him once, and got a fast, no-nonsense response.

The guy is $$$$$ ($25-30K for flat-fan set up?) but you have to give him props for making what appears to be meticulous reproductions of factory 935 parts and set-ups, possibly even improving on them. Per some guys who know of him in Sweden, he only works old-school - No efi or new tech

Until i see some independent verification of him numbers tho, gotta be a little skeptical. I mean, in order to get more than 500 or so reliable HP from the 934, the factory had to go to MFI.

I am planning a Sweden, Norway road-trip in the near future, and might just have to stop by and acutually see this guy's stuff. Am intrigued

poorsche930 · 07:19 AM

That 930 I/C is really clean looking, and the idea of blowing away sport bikes makes me drool. Then I remembered I like corners. That much torque, that soon, with me behind the wheel...... can you say 360? I'll have to wait until I can drive like Walter Rohrl (and winning $20million now that I'm dreaming)..... ok so I'll never have a 600hp 930. But that guy does have some cool projects.

tarheelturbo · 01-27-2009, 07:14 AM

i have to admitt i am skeptical too! my shop, IA, Lynmor, and every 930 enthusiast i've talked to places a real limit on the CIS system, 500bhp,

However if a build like this is possible , i would personally love to induldge in it! i don't think there would be anything more rewarding that being able to stay with the original technology and be able to make the big power like the EFI guys do! that would be one amazing car!

Also why i'm posting, even better would be if i had the cash for that 935 motor they have forsale, i would like that very much in my car!!

Reaper930 · 01-27-2009, 07:35 AM

For that kind of money its just so much easier to swap to a larger disp. motor. Newer tech but all manageable and go twin.

DDDD · 01-27-2009, 08:12 AM

David at Prototech once told me that there is no actual limit to how much fuel the CIS can flow, you can make it dump tons of fuel if you really need it.

But as mentioned above it is a crude and imprecise method of delivery so you don't get much control over the fuel delivery.

When people mentioned the often quoted "CIS only supports 400 hp", that is referring to a particular application i.e. using a IA fuel head and flowing to a 3.3 or 3.4 engine through fairly stock intake.

I think the best thing to say is that "CIS is not what you want for more than about 400 hp".

Craig 930 RS · 01-27-2009, 08:59 AM

Yep, that is exactly it. FWIW it works just fine on my 514 FWHP.

juicersr · juicersr's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS

Yep, that is exactly it. FWIW it works just fine on my 514 FWHP.

Craig, you gonna drive that fire-breather to Monterey this summer? Would love to meet up and see it.

tarheelturbo · 01-27-2009, 10:26 AM

All i'm saying is theres something special about staying with the spirit in which it was created..
its like dropping a fuel injected motor into an old muscle car, sure it can perform better
but theres something to be said for having a pair of huge holley 4 barrels mounted up top!

JBL930 · 01-27-2009, 10:33 AM

I've spoken to Micke (a few years ago) about his CIS claims and he answers questions quite openly. He basically runs high boost lower in the RPM range where there is plenty of fuel, there is a lot more to it clearly but the high peak power level you are looking at is something like 1.5bar at 5000rpm.
I'm informed by some reliable sources that he is the real deal, i'm yet to hear from a customer though. Some of those engine builds are pure art though aren't they, stunning!

DDDD · 01-27-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheelturbo

All i'm saying is theres something special about staying with the spirit in which it was created..
its like dropping a fuel injected motor into an old muscle car, sure it can perform better
but theres something to be said for having a pair of huge holley 4 barrels mounted up top!

Well CIS is much maligned but it does the job good enough if it is well cared for.

When CIS gets old and gummy is when people start to hate it.

What you give up on CIS really boils down to that first second or so of throttle response that well tuned fuel injection provides. Once the CIS starts dumping fuel, you will end up with fairly similiar power characteristics as EFI, but brute force instead of finesse.

For the meat of the powerband, you probably get 5-10 extra horses if the EFI is tuned to maximum efficiency. A couple sweet spots will be significantly better for EFI, which is why the dyno charts seem so favorable to EFI when you just go by the numbers.

Once the fuel starts flowing fast, Holley carbs, MFI, CIS, EFI are all just dumping fuel into a hungry engine.

Craig 930 RS · 01-27-2009, 10:53 AM

All else being equal on a fairly modded 930 engine, EFI brings about 30+ HP additional all by itself, FWTW.

I guess I have a cheap bastard EFI with the Leask RPM fuel delay switch (hey, it's the only 'computer chip' on the entire car)

CIS problems are typically too much fuel down low (thus the Leask RPM switch to DELAY full fuel) and not enough over 5,500 (which is where the IA fuel head greatly helps - if it is needed in a particular case)

CIS fact #1: Upon full boost, CIS delivers FULL FUEL. Maximum. Gusher. Gully washer.

Parse all the crap down to the recirc valve & the WUR and you have a great, simple setup.
All the other stuff - all of it - is just not needed (unless you have visual inpsections and emissions tests)
You will need to nurse the throttle (ie add throttle) for 30 seconds upon startup-

Craig 930 RS · 01-27-2009, 10:59 AM

I wish I could bring my car down to CA - problem is it's pretty much a race car for the street and would be a handful on a long drive -

zcoker · 01-27-2009, 02:03 PM

Like I said, over the years the Swedes would just boggle our minds with the M30 SOHC bmw motors, I mean, the HP was crazy and many on the boards denied such claims. But they have some neat tricks up their sleeves that are just now coming out and makes good sense. They are old school, for sure. One of their biggest solutions with bmw turbo motors is their sealing solution, a pyramid ring setup with reliefs on the block for detonation blow-outs. A regular stock $30 gasket devoid of the fire ring goes around this setup. 1500HP on the water cooled S38 motor, easily. They are pumping out 800hp on home-built/ barn-yard m30's all day long with this setup.

fredmeister · fredmeister's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS

How'd they get the TQ & HP to intersect at 4900 instaead of 5250?
Must be some new Suh-vedish law of measurement.

Kidding aside, looks like that shop has some pretty cool projects -

I saw the same thing at 5250......what is that all about? Makes you have some doubts on validity.