964 Turbo - Engine self rebuild? Am I nuts?

[Spenny_b]

Hi folks,

Noobie here, so thought I'd post and say "Hello"....have spent a number of evenings surfing around the various threads; what a cracking forum!!

I'm currently in the process of selling a 996 GT3 Mk2 to make way for a 964T, 3.3; there's not to many for sale here in the UK at the moment (completely wrong time of year), but I've currently got 2 on my radar;

1) a GP white RHD car, 99k miles, had a top-end plus cylinders done 10k miles ago. Bottom end was inspected and apparently still good. Certainly some big bills have been spent including PSS9/10's, new OE exhaust, new clutch.

2) a friend is selling a black on black LHD example, it's had a number of big ticket items taken care of (new TurboS FW and clutch, new KW v3 dampers, new Fabspeed headers and system, new oil lines) but the engine has now done 105k miles and no rebuild. Despite his protestations that the engine is still pulling strongly and dyno's well, it is dripping oil (could just be tubes, needs investigating) and *HAS* to be closer to needing a strip-down than not needing one....so therefore have to at least budget for it.

Both are within £1k of each other...so at that point the GP White RHD car looks far better value for money...

But...

I think my preference is for the black car...the interior is in better condition, and in a funny sort of way, I think it will feel more of an occasion to get into a LHD car each time..."as Porsche intended". I also spend the majority of "fun" mileage hopping across to the Continent for things like Le Mans/LM Classic/general mountain hoons, so LHD obviously makes sense for that.

The white car is the "head" choice, having had engine rebuild taken care of by a reputable Indy here in the UK (Steve Bull in Devizes)...and have to say it looks better in the flesh than in photos...It seems that white is the new black over here, judging by the various threads on wrapping cars..

So, cutting to the chase. I'm not frightened of a project car, in fact that's what I'm after. The GT3 is (frankly) a garage queen, for various reasons.

My question, after reading a couple of the threads on here, in particular Sundevil64's EFI conversion is whether I'm bonkers for even considering doing a rebuild project myself.

This was something I've been considering anyway. To put some context around it, I've built and had a trackday Westfield (think Lotus 7 alike) for 18yrs, including building the current engine from scratch, *almost* to the same spec as the Vauxhall British Touring Cars ran back in the mid 90's (pushing 272hp from 2.0 litres, N/A). Very accurately timed, lots of trick bits, dry sumped, all custom mapped (a good mate owns a race shop who specialise in these engines, and does the mapping)...the car is now a little too wild for road use, ca. 520hp/tonne, so that's the kind of thing I very much enjoy doing.

I'm keen not to be a cheque-book-tuner and just throw money at it, unless it's something very specialist.

So, options...

1) Can a full top and bottom rebuild be done on a 964T by somebody other than an Indy specialist? Of course, things like head skimming, porting, cylinder honing, regrinds would all be done by specialists. I'm talking about disassembly and reassembly.

2) If not, then perhaps I draw the line at getting the engine (and box) out of the car, stripping the engine down and delivering a stripped lump to a chosen specialist for a rebuild?

3) Forget all the above and let a specialist handle it, lock/stock.

Things that slightly concern me are:

- the procedural items that you'll only know by having done many 911 rebuilds beforehand...or is all this detailed in the official Porsche manual set you can buy?

- are there any tools that are specific to the 964? I'm aware of the car jack adapter sold by Pelican for engine removal that looks to make life a lot more straightforward (safe).

Probably worth pointing out that if I were to do this, I'd certainly upgrade items for future upgrading...ARP bolts being one that springs to mind. I wouldn't be in a hurry to get this done over a weekend or even a week. It's a fun car, so happy to spend time getting it right and if required, waiting for parts availability.

Sorry about the long post! If anyone has a direct link to other threads that address any/all of the above, then please do feel free to tell me to read that first *then* come back and ask questions!....am searching/reading in every spare minute.

Many thanks in advance!
Spencer.

[jwasbury]

You can do it. I did my '79 rebuild myself...farmed out machine work, of course.

Here is the link to my rebuild thread. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/492267-jacobs-rebuild-thread.html

Its very satisfying to really know your car.

Wayne Dempsey's 911 engine rebuild book (available from our host) was an invaluable tool for me, as was this forum.

Good luck and enjoy, whatever you choose.

[Spenny_b]

Jacob, thank-you very much - exactly the sort of post I was after, and am now sitting here with a hot mug of tea reading through.

I've just been out to see a mate who owns a local workshop - he's a Bosch agent, knows k-jet and certainly knows the contacts to get nozzle flows set up and fuel distributor work done (if necessary).

The main advantage is that he has 3 x 4-poster lifts and seems to be "well up for a Saturday project"!...i.e., getting the engine/box out and refitted once the rebuild's been done.

Agree with you about knowing your car; I really want to immerse myself with this (future) car. It's probably telling that I've bought 4 or 5 books already, but own none on my GT3....will have a browse at Waynes book as well, thanks for the heads-up on that.

Cheers
S

[911st]

The C2 Turbo seems to be a very solid build and there are examples going 200k miles. Might do a leak down. May just need to fix the leaks.

[911boost]

Don't let the leaks discourage you. Mine was leaking at the lower valve covers and cam tower on the passenger side, when I got it. It had been twin plugged and the lower valve covers were a hack job. After going a couple of different routes, I ended up just putting some 930 ones on it I modifed. The cam tower still leaks a little, but with 52,xxx on the engine, my leak downs are very good (just did the valve adjustments, and 12 new plugs) so I just live with the leak for now.

You sound mechanical, so I don't think a rebuilt woudl be out of your league.

Good luck, and welcome to the club. There aren't many 964T's floating around, so mine always gets a second look.

Bill

[Spenny_b]

Thanks chaps - yes, a leak-down test is probably something I'll ask the Indy thats looked after the car in recent years, to perform. Just for curiosity more than anything...or I may do something I've threatened to do, and make my own leakdown test rig (any excuse to hop onto a lathe and turn something up!)...would be a good use of the whacking great compressor I treated myself to a few months ago, lol!

Great doing the research on the car in general and the engine specifically - removes the fear of the unknown somewhat, knowing that if the worst were to happen (eg. a broken head stud) I've got some sort of plan.

Waynes book now ordered ;o)

[billjam]

Spencer,
If a bean counter can do it, anyone can!
As Jacob says, it is a great way to really get to know your car.

[Spenny_b]

(strange, I posted a 3rd mssg yesterday afternoon, but it said it'd be posted once approved by a Mod?...it still hasn't appeared...oh well)

Thanks chaps...I spent yesterday evening both reading Jacobs excellent write-up (Jacob, have a big, festive thumbs-up fella!) and downloading the additional images that didn't make it into Waynes book (which I also ordered).

I'm very enthused by that rebuild project - it's almost cemented my decision to go for the black car. Even though a self-build doesn't look to be a whole lot cheaper than some of the UK indy prices that have been mentioned on the UK boards, the experience looks to be great....of course Jacobs is a 930 build, but I'm pretty sure that the changes made to the M30/69 for the 964T don't alter anything in terms of complication [reaches for Streathers and Frere's bibles].

A question though; Jacob replaced the P&Cs for the 3.5l items. If I don't want to go that route and re-use what I've got (assuming they're just worn and not damaged, which they shouldn't be) can the stock cylinders be honed or sleeved? I'm guessing that new stage 1 oversize pistons will then be needed....Or do most folk find that even at 100k+ miles, that the P&C's are still ok?

Cheers
S

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by billjam

Spencer,
If a bean counter can do it, anyone can!

Yep...thanks for that Bill

Originally Posted by Spenny_b

Even though a self-build doesn't look to be a whole lot cheaper than some of the UK indy prices that have been mentioned on the UK boards...

Spencer,

Self build will be cheaper...I saved at least $5000 in labor cost, and I also know I spent a lot more time cleaning and polishing internal bits than any shop could do (and still make any profit). I could have saved $1000s by not going for twin plug, and looking for cheaper P&C options. Going 3.5 liter also cost me extra in machine work because the case spigots needed to be bored oversize. I spent about $1000 bringing my crankshaft up to spec, including crossdrilling #4 main journal for additional oiling to rod bearings #2 & 5. Others may have just had it magged and polished and ran it with a thou or two of additional clearance (machine shop said a lot of racers do this).

Originally Posted by Spenny_b

A question though; Jacob replaced the P&Cs for the 3.5l items. If I don't want to go that route and re-use what I've got (assuming they're just worn and not damaged, which they shouldn't be) can the stock cylinders be honed or sleeved? I'm guessing that new stage 1 oversize pistons will then be needed....Or do most folk find that even at 100k+ miles, that the P&C's are still ok?

P&Cs may still be in spec, but from what I've been told turbo engines tend to need new ones (they go out of round). You will need to have them measured. I don't think they can be sleeved. It may be possible to have them bored over, but then they will have to be replated. You would need custom pistons made to match (JE can do this). I know one cheaper option for P&Cs that is available from EBS is where they take 3.2 liter carrera jugs, bore them oversized to 97mm (stock for the 3.3l turbo) and replate.

[Jim Dorociak]

Many of the 930 turbo engines did not have full fins on the cylinders, you will have to do some research to find out when that changed, I belileve it was when the 964 Turbo was released. So if your cylinders are full fined, 3.3 engine then consider having them bored to 98mm and nicasil coating applied making a 3.4 engine and buy new pistons.
Jim

[matty74]

Yeah I building my 3.6 turbo spliting case and everything, I figure if I can design and develop large software systems for large multinationals I cxan rebuild and engine, its just a case of doing the research and asking the right questions