Rifle for home defense

[jyl]

There was once a full auto .22LR submachine gun, called the American 180 if memory serves. Very high capacity drum magazine, very high rate of fire (over 1000 rounds/sec). [CORRECTION: per minute.] It was marketed as a law enforcement weapon. The idea was that the .22LR had little overpenetration risk so was a safer round for urban situations, while a firehose at of lead at 1000 rps with very little recoil would take care of stopping power. Goofy idea, goofy looking gun. A few were sold. A police officer actually fired his American 180 at fleeing suspects during a car chase. One suspect was instantly killed and the other severely wounded, the chase ended right away.

Anyway, I digress. Carbine length rifle might be handy enough, she’s not going to be going through any doorways with it. With a rifle and a caliber that she’ll actually practice with, she’ll have a better chance of hitting the intruder, while I suspect the average person is more likely to miss than hit with a pistol and especially one that they are unwilling to train with. The .22LR is what it is, but if that’s all she’s willing to shoot, then I think a (short) long gun makes sense.

If she has fun plinking with her 10/22 and gets encouraged to move on to other calibers, well, that’s how lots of people get started.

[Shifter]

Penetration should be the issue discussed here. Last thing you want to do is to crow to your neighbor how you shot a home invader with your 44 mag, and them telling you your round went through your intruder, your door, their wall, their refrigerator and their child.

Typically a home defender only recalls firing a few rounds. Usually they clip is empty when it is reviewed by police. Adrenaline is a funny thing. Just do a test. Next time you are at the range with your buddies, put an arbitrary number on the amount of rounds you can shoot from the clip. Bet most of them can't do it.

Round nose bullets should never be used for home defense, they just go right through the target, and keep going. Last thing you want. Hollow points that expands on contact and stops? Yes. Will they to a bunch of damage to the initial target? YES!
Do they travel too far outside your initial target, or your unintentional target? No!

Stopping power isn't necessarily the round size. It will be the damage the round does on contact. Bigger rounds will go further. My preference is a round that will expand and bounce around in their body.

She should shoot what is comfortable for her. I have the same issue with my wife, she likes the 22 rifle, but it is not good for the shape of our home, several narrow hall ways that would impede bringing the rifle to bear.

I think a .380 would be perfect for my wife, as the handles are usually smaller, and fits her smaller hands. (I did marry a girl with small hands) Low recoil, and she should be able to double tap.

[MBAtarga]

Originally Posted by speeder

the whole idea behind any self defense weapon is stopping power, as in stopping the threat immediately. You want to shoot someone w something that won't allow them to shoot back 2 seconds later.

At least that's the way i've always understood it.

fify ?

[flatbutt]

I understand the need for stopping power, but to stop a target you need to hit a target.

As always Im ready to be corrected by them what knows more than I do but my personal experience is that the larger the caliber the harder it is to reacquire the target.

A .22 doesn't hit hard but is easy to get back on target for 2 or 3 rounds since it doesn't move much on discharge. I know this from my own experience. Plus, a hollow point .22 in the chest especially a lung will cause a sheet ton of bleeding.

If someone can't manage the bang of a 9mm/ .38 then maybe a ,22/ .25 would suffice. No weapon is effective if you can't get on target.

I get that the length of a shotgun barrel is hard to manage but if she is at one end of a hallway and the perp at the other.....

[Hard-Deck]

I always suggest, for in-home, non-shotgun, choose a 9mm MPX. Available in several barrel lengths.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

A .22 doesn't hit hard but is easy to get back on target for 2 or 3 rounds since it doesn't move much on discharge. I know this from my own experience. Plus, a hollow point .22 in the chest especially a lung will cause a sheet ton of bleeding.

What "size" .22? Magnum rounds can kill a person but in the house discharging it would cause the instant ear ringing and nothing will be heard again for a while. Even a LR is loud. There is benefit to maintaining your hearing.

Can a little larger bore, like the 9MM offer more knock down power and less noise vs a .22 LR? I suppose that would depend on the round used.

Just asking, not trying to advise.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

What "size" .22? Magnum rounds can kill a person but in the house discharging it would cause the instant ear ringing and nothing will be heard again for a while. Even a LR is loud. There is benefit to maintaining your hearing.

Can a little larger bore, like the 9MM offer more knock down power and less noise vs a .22 LR? I suppose that would depend on the round used.

Just asking, not trying to advise.

I've never discharged my 9 without ear protection but I'm imagine it would be very loud indeed and certainly provide more knockdown. Further a 9 mm HP would do the target a YUGE amount of damage. I wouldn't want to do the cleanup after that.

[HardDrive]

Snapper beat me to it.

9mm rilfe:
https://ruger.com/products/pcCarbine/specSheets/19100.html

[Tobra]

For my buddy's wife, she has not tried his PC 9 yet, but I suspect that will be the new choice, over penetration would be more of a concern with that

[David]

[Jeff Higgins]

I've been a pretty active shooting enthusiast for pretty much my entire life. Hunting, formal match shooting, just plain old plinking. I've more or less paid attention to the myriad of issues surrounding my sport for this entire time. I may very well have missed it, but I am honestly not aware of anyone having ever accidentally shot a neighbor as the result of "over penetration" in a defensive shooting. Yes, it absolutely could happen, I understand that. I have just never seen a documented case.

What we have seen, time and time again, are the failures of inadequate rounds to stop the fight. We have seen over and over again situations wherein the defender lost their life, or was seriously injured, because their defensive arm failed to do the job. There is a big difference between stopping and killing. If we decide someone needs to be shot, we would really like them to stop whatever it was they were doing that drove us to that decision. We really don't care if they eventually die. That's not what we are after.

Any defensive arm needs to be capable of stopping the fight right now. Settling for less is a mistake. If someone is truly serious about providing for their defense, or for the defense of loved ones, they will put in the time necessary to learn to handle an adequate firearm. Anything less is pure fantasy, no more than wishful thinking. Just because someone owns and has access to a firearm, any firearm, does not mean they are armed. One of my favorite analogies is that "buying a guitar does not make one a musician". A commitment to defend one's self and one's loved ones is about as serious of a commitment that we will ever make. Far too may treat it far too casually. Get the training. Learn to use an adequate weapon. Your life, and the lives of loved ones, may someday depend on it.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

What "size" .22? Magnum rounds can kill a person but in the house discharging it would cause the instant ear ringing and nothing will be heard again for a while. Even a LR is loud. There is benefit to maintaining your hearing.

Can a little larger bore, like the 9MM offer more knock down power and less noise vs a .22 LR? I suppose that would depend on the round used.

Just asking, not trying to advise.

I would think that the quietest round by far would be a 22 lr. A 9mm isn't 44 magnum loud, but it's still much louder than a 9mm in my experience. It's like the difference between one of those tiny firecrackers that's not quite as big around as a pencil (black cat) vs an M-80.

Originally Posted by flatbutt

I've never discharged my 9 without ear protection but I'm imagine it would be very loud indeed and certainly provide more knockdown. Further a 9 mm HP would do the target a YUGE amount of damage. I wouldn't want to do the cleanup after that.

It's pretty loud. I've experienced a 9mm in a small concrete area with no ear protection. I wouldn't want to do it for a long time, but a couple few shots won't kill you. And better to have ringing ears than have a home invasion go wrong.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I've been a pretty active shooting enthusiast for pretty much my entire life. Hunting, formal match shooting, just plain old plinking. I've more or less paid attention to the myriad of issues surrounding my sport for this entire time. I may very well have missed it, but I am honestly not aware of anyone having ever accidentally shot a neighbor as the result of "over penetration" in a defensive shooting. Yes, it absolutely could happen, I understand that. I have just never seen a documented case.

All of the issues that I've heard of where a neighbors house was shot (whether someone inside was killed or not, was due to either a drive-by (doesn't really count) OR a negligent discharge by someone who is "cleaning" the gun or whatever that then discharges a round that does places that they wouldn't have wanted it to go.

But that's a whole different kettle of fish. Yes, if you don't shoot someone, then the bullet is likely to go farther, faster and end up places that you didn't intend. But if you're planning for that sort of thing, maybe you shouldn't have a gun.

[jgreen]

38 double action revolver, pump 12 ga shotgun (reasonably short barrel) and a dog.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Tobra

For my buddy's wife, she has not tried his PC 9 yet, but I suspect that will be the new choice, over penetration would be more of a concern with that

Have them look up 9mm RIP rounds or some of the hollow point options available. I believe the RIP is made for .380 too.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by tcar

Over 1,000 Rounds per MINUTE, not second....
Do a search...

That's still 20+ RPS.

Oops, thanks for the catch.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

What "size" .22? Magnum rounds can kill a person but in the house discharging it would cause the instant ear ringing and nothing will be heard again for a while. Even a LR is loud. There is benefit to maintaining your hearing.

Can a little larger bore, like the 9MM offer more knock down power and less noise vs a .22 LR? I suppose that would depend on the round used.

Just asking, not trying to advise.

As I understand it, it's all about the kinetic energy carried by the bullet and how much of that energy can be transferred into the target.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I've been a pretty active shooting enthusiast for pretty much my entire life. Hunting, formal match shooting, just plain old plinking. I've more or less paid attention to the myriad of issues surrounding my sport for this entire time. I may very well have missed it, but I am honestly not aware of anyone having ever accidentally shot a neighbor as the result of "over penetration" in a defensive shooting. Yes, it absolutely could happen, I understand that. I have just never seen a documented case.

What we have seen, time and time again, are the failures of inadequate rounds to stop the fight. We have seen over and over again situations wherein the defender lost their life, or was seriously injured, because their defensive arm failed to do the job. There is a big difference between stopping and killing. If we decide someone needs to be shot, we would really like them to stop whatever it was they were doing that drove us to that decision. We really don't care if they eventually die. That's not what we are after.

Any defensive arm needs to be capable of stopping the fight right now. Settling for less is a mistake. If someone is truly serious about providing for their defense, or for the defense of loved ones, they will put in the time necessary to learn to handle an adequate firearm. Anything less is pure fantasy, no more than wishful thinking. Just because someone owns and has access to a firearm, any firearm, does not mean they are armed. One of my favorite analogies is that "buying a guitar does not make one a musician". A commitment to defend one's self and one's loved ones is about as serious of a commitment that we will ever make. Far too may treat it far too casually. Get the training. Learn to use an adequate weapon. Your life, and the lives of loved ones, may someday depend on it.

But for this woman, it sounds like right now it is .22 or nothing. She’s new to guns. Isn’t a .22 the way many shooters start off? The 10/22 or whatever isn’t supposed to be the end game, just the gateway drug. I think getting her having fun plinking with the .22 and then receptive to “moving up” is more likely to produce a well protected lady in the end, than handing her a firearm that she won’t shoot but once. At least with my wife, there’s no way I could have persuaded her to start with a bigger caliber handgun. In my experience, have to take women along in incremental steps.

[911 Rod]

I've had one of these for years. Short and weighs nothing. Have a couple of clips.

[HardDrive]

Wow, my first rifle! I have not seen one in years. Thanks for the photo.

Originally Posted by 911 Rod

I've had one of these for years. Short and weighs nothing. Have a couple of clips.