Rifle for home defense

[Cajundaddy]

Right now is the worst possible time to buy a gun. Good ones are out of stock and ammo has gone the toilet paper route with empty shelves everywhere and hoarders filling their spare bedrooms with the stuff. I don't like relying on deadly force for home defense and if I do need to reach for it, my home defense strategy was a failure. I do own them and one semi-auto is currently cleaned and loaded because "social unrest and apocalypse" but... If I have to go there it will be a very bad day.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

I don't like relying on deadly force for home defense and if I do need to reach for it, my home defense strategy was a failure.

Of course and I agree.

I have auto lights, double locks on all doors, alarms, dogs and we are on the second floor.

If they get to me they need to go.

[vash]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Of course and I agree.

I have auto lights, double locks on all doors, alarms, dogs and we are on the second floor.

If they get to me they need to go.

right. i am going to install an exterior door on my bedroom with real locks. anyone comes in, i call cops while i am locking things down. they can pick thru my crap, steal my old ass TV, eat my bacon, etc.

i have the door covered with a shotgun and a handgun laying on my bed.

that is how i have it played out in my mind. ..in reality, it will be a firedrill, the Chinese type of firedrill. my wife will probably lock me out with the bad guys.

[HardDrive]

I keep a Sig P226R .40 in my bed stand. It's in a lock box. Extra magazine and a box of jacketed hollow points there as well.

[Jeff Higgins]

I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, but I do have to ask - why in a lock box? Access would be a concern, for me, should it ever come to that. Too much stress, possibly some level of panic, to want to deal with such a barrier.

And yes, before someone goes there, I did raise two boys. They both knew where the gun was from the time they were toddlers. And both knew the unhappy consequences of putting their grubby mitts on it without my authorization. I always felt that familiarization and discipline outweighed any physical barriers. That was my situation, though, and I do realize everyone's is different.

But, hell, I grew up with guns in kitchen drawers, in dad's tool box, in his nightstand, or often in other odd places around the house. Never a problem. We all knew the consequences...

[vash]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, but I do have to ask - why in a lock box? Access would be a concern, for me, should it ever come to that. Too much stress, possibly some level of panic, to want to deal with such a barrier.

And yes, before someone goes there, I did raise two boys. They both knew where the gun was from the time they were toddlers. And both knew the unhappy consequences of putting their grubby mitts on it without my authorization. I always felt that familiarization and discipline outweighed any physical barriers. That was my situation, though, and I do realize everyone's is different.

But, hell, I grew up with guns in kitchen drawers, in dad's tool box, in his nightstand, or often in other odd places around the house. Never a problem. We all knew the consequences...

i think locked is smart..or hidden damn well. any knucklehead kid grabs it and shoots him/herself and a friend..it is on the gun owner. law or not, i couldnt live with that.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by vash

i think locked is smart..or hidden damn well. any knucklehead kid grabs it and shoots him/herself and a friend..it is on the gun owner. law or not, i couldnt live with that.

The only "knucklehead kid(s)" in my home when I was growing up were myself and my siblings. In my home when my children were growing up, those "knucklehead kid(s)" were my own. Zero chance of some random "knucklehead kid" wandering in and finding my relatively "unsecured" gun.

I guess that's my point - "child control" is far more effective than "gun control", insofar as the safe storage of a defensive firearm in the home. My parents' results, my results, my siblings' results, all pretty much speak for themselves - a 100% success rate of zero "knucklehead kids" accessing firearms they were not supposed to access.

Isn't "knucklehead kid" kinda redundant anyway?

[MRM]

Cajun makes some excellent points. The selection of a weapon for home defense should be part of a well thought out overall security strategy. In that context, especially if she is not comfortable handling a weapon that is well suited for lethal home defense (there is no other kind) she may be better off taking other steps for self protection and not worrying about the responsibility of selecting, practicing, and storing a gun.

When I was prosecuting I noticed that a disturbing number of police reports started out with "I heard ___ banging on my door, demanding to be let in, so I opened the door and . . . ". People would open the door to anyone, even people who had threatened them before and were threatening them as they banged on the door, demanding to be let in. When in danger, they would call their mother, their sister, brother, of best friend, who would usually drive over, see an assault taking place, and only then would someone call the police. I used to ask victims why the opened the door, considering the bad guy was on the other side of a locked door and couldn't get in (which is why he was banging on the door). It simply never occurred to people that they didn't have to open the door and that they could call the police if they were in danger.

If their house is isolated, it makes more sense to have ready access to a firearm. But in any suburban or urban neighborhood, a locked door, an alarm system, a cell phone that can call 911, and the awareness of not opening the door to anyone who is not invited, is probably all the security the average person needs.

[vash]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The only "knucklehead kid(s)" in my home when I was growing up were myself and my siblings. In my home when my children were growing up, those "knucklehead kid(s)" were my own. Zero chance of some random "knucklehead kid" wandering in and finding my relatively "unsecured" gun.

I guess that's my point - "child control" is far more effective than "gun control", insofar as the safe storage of a defensive firearm in the home. My parents' results, my results, my siblings' results, all pretty much speak for themselves - a 100% success rate of zero "knucklehead kids" accessing firearms they were not supposed to access.

Isn't "knucklehead kid" kinda redundant anyway?

yea..my dad hid his guns. one was a 38 special. a snubby. i remember it vividly and how it looks aimed at my 6 year old head. i remember my sister finding his handgun and aiming it at my head and squeezing the trigger. if that thing was loaded, that would have been it for me. my dad had it in a metal box with a key lock. my sister still got into it.

i dont ever talk about it. never did to my parents. it still chills my spine now...45 years later. i should see if my sister remembers it. oh,..you know what else was in that box? my dad's police mace-spray. i took a full face shot of that stuff later. dropped me screaming to my knees.

i wish i was born into another family sometimes.

now? my stuff is locked up..fort knox locked up. a neighbor kid, a visiting kid..no thanks.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by vash

yea..my dad hid his guns. one was a 38 special. a snubby. i remember it vividly and how it looks aimed at my 6 year old head. i remember my sister finding his handgun and aiming it at my head and squeezing the trigger. if that thing was loaded, that would have been it for me. my dad had it in a metal box with a key lock. my sister still got into it.

i dont ever talk about it. never did to my parents. it still chills my spine now...45 years later. i should see if my sister remembers it. oh,..you know what else was in that box? my dad's police mace-spray. i took a full face shot of that stuff later. dropped me screaming to my knees.

i wish i was born into another family sometimes.

now? my stuff is locked up..fort knox locked up. a neighbor kid, a visiting kid..no thanks.

Yikes!!! Holy crap... I guess we are all glad it wasn't loaded...

Not to keep beating this dead horse (although that is what we do best around here), but that story is exactly why my dad made sure we all knew what would happen when that trigger was pulled, and I did the same with my kids. There was no mystery, no doubt - just a very clear understanding of what happens when we pull a trigger. I was shown, my kids were shown, first hand.

I believe the only reason your sister did that - the only possible reason - was that she had no idea what would have happened had that gun been loaded. She had never been shown. She had no frame of reference. It was just an innocent game to her.

I'm a big believer in the concept of the "forbidden fruit". We were all "knucklehead kids" (I love that term...) once, and I'm sure well remember the overwhelming enticement of being told not to do something. That, of course, automatically meant we just had to see what it was all about. That notion is what drove my own dad, and later myself, to show our kids precisely what guns are "all about". I knew, and my own sons knew by the time they were strong enough to pull one, just what happens when a trigger is pulled. With graphic images of that in all of our minds, not a one of us would have ever even dreamt of pulling a trigger on someone.

So, yeah, two markedly different approaches. Full access, and full knowledge on the one hand, "forbidden fruit" and forced ignorance on the other. I know I was a sneaky little schitt who had no trouble accessing any sort of "forbidden fruit", and I just assumed my sons were as well. Now, as adults, they have provided me with "full disclosure" - and let's just say I'm forever thankful that they knew full well what could happen, and handled them safely. Oh, and kept their conniving little schitt friends away from them, because they knew those friends had no idea.

[Cajundaddy]

This is a timely thread as my wife has been suggesting that she needs to get up to speed with a firearm that is right for her in a close range, home defense situation. She was originally thinking handgun but I really don't like em. Far too many friendly fire incidents including a lot of kids and even adults just screwing around (Vash gives a perfect example). She thinks my 12 GA is too much gun and she is probably right. I think the .22s are not enough gun, the .308 w scope is nice @ 200 yards but not much use in the hallway.

If she really wants to pursue this we are going to need to spend some time on the range. After 200-400 rounds of supervised fun shooting she should be pretty confident and capable. I am putting a 20GA and 410 on the short list and we will spend some time sharing with friends who own both of these to see which is a better fit for her. If we do this she needs to commit 1day/mo for range time with me to stay current and competent. I see it as a win-win. I like to shoot but haven't made much time for it lately. Maybe she will like shooting clays.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

This is a timely thread as my wife has been suggesting that she needs to get up to speed with a firearm that is right for her in a close range, home defense situation. She was originally thinking handgun but I really don't like em. Far too many friendly fire incidents including a lot of kids and even adults just screwing around. She thinks my 12 GA is too much gun and she is probably right. I think the .22s are not enough gun, the .308 w scope is nice @ 200 yards but not much use in the hallway.

If she really wants to pursue this we are going to need to spend some time on the range. After 200-400 rounds of supervised fun shooting she should be pretty confident and capable. I am putting a 20GA and 410 on the short list and we will spend some time sharing with friends who own both of these to see which is a better fit for her. If we do this she needs to commit 1day/mo for range time with me to stay current and competent. I see it as a win-win. I like to shoot but haven't made much time for it lately. Maybe she will like shooting clays.

Great plan - good for you!

My only suggestion is to possibly not rule out the 12 gauge. Recent years have seen the introduction of a good variety of "reduced recoil" defensive loads. I'm not sure if they are available in 20 gauge, which is the only reason I'm suggesting the 12. If they are, in fact, available in 20 as well, that might just be the ticket.

Many of these are in shortened cases as well, with the stated purpose of increasing magazine capacity. I don't know all that much about them, though, but I think if I were seriously looking at defensive shotguns I would take a look at them.

[wildthing]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

I keep a Sig P226R .40 in my bed stand. It's in a lock box. Extra magazine and a box of jacketed hollow points there as well.

I used to have my Sig in my bedside table lockbox. But I read that in California they take away your gun after a shooting (even in self-defense) and may take a while to get back. So I put the Glock in. I'd rather lose a $400 gun to the system than a $900 gun.

I know, it should be the least of my worries...

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

I am putting a 20GA and 410 on the short list and we will spend some time sharing with friends who own both of these to see which is a better fit for her. If we do this she needs to commit 1day/mo for range time with me to stay current and competent. I see it as a win-win.

Even though she grew up on a farm, my wife is not a gun person at all. She absolutely has issues with a pistol above .22. Even though we are remote, a pistol wasn't going to be on the menu. No issues at all. Comfort is king.

I found a used, older version of this Mossberg she likes in 20 gauge. Not our shotgun but close. I think I paid $150 for it 15 years ago. Again, used. I think there are different grips for our model, there certainly are for the new ones, but this works for her.



We use Hornady Custom Lite shells since the recoil is significantly less for her.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/shotgun/20-ga-slug-250-gr-ftx-custom-lite#!/

As you mentioned before, the Mossberg is the last layer of defense after a host of other bells and whistles. Someone really has to want to be here to get here and she understands the last link in our defense. I don't travel nearly has much as I used to so we hit our range every two months and go through paces. Safety is the key pace, btw, pulling the trigger is easy.

I am going to look for a .410 as well and give the 20 gauge to my daughter who is very comfortably with guns.

This one used: https://greatamericanoutdoors.com/2020/04/the-mossberg-shockwave-in-410-gauge-a-good-home-defense-shotgun/

[JavaBrewer]

Originally Posted by wildthing

I used to have my Sig in my bedside table lockbox. But I read that in California they take away your gun after a shooting (even in self-defense) and may take a while to get back. So I put the Glock in. I'd rather lose a $400 gun to the system than a $900 gun.

I know, it should be the least of my worries...

Agree, another wrinkle to consider in the complex world of self defense and lawyers/law. In that vein I also recommend adopting the same ammunition used by the local law enforcement for whatever firearm you choose. Will likely (I have no personal experience) benefit you when the opposing attorney asks about the round and you clearly state that you trust local law enforcement and follow their personal guidelines. Just saying...

Just praying (or similar) that I never ever have to use a firearm in a L & D situation. I could do it, but likely I would be damaged for life.

[HardDrive]

Unfortunately, my situation is a bit reversed. While my child (17 year old daughter) would never touch a gun outside of safety protocols, the young male dumbarses that come around...well, I don't know how their parents raised them.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, but I do have to ask - why in a lock box? Access would be a concern, for me, should it ever come to that. Too much stress, possibly some level of panic, to want to deal with such a barrier.

And yes, before someone goes there, I did raise two boys. They both knew where the gun was from the time they were toddlers. And both knew the unhappy consequences of putting their grubby mitts on it without my authorization. I always felt that familiarization and discipline outweighed any physical barriers. That was my situation, though, and I do realize everyone's is different.

But, hell, I grew up with guns in kitchen drawers, in dad's tool box, in his nightstand, or often in other odd places around the house. Never a problem. We all knew the consequences...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Unfortunately, my situation is a bit reversed. While my child (17 year old daughter) would never touch a gun outside of safety protocols, the young male dumbarses that come around...well, I don't know how their parents raised them.

If I had a 17 year old daughter, I would make it a point to be cleaning one of my guns every time one of her knucklehead boyfriends stopped by. Just sayin'...

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

We use Hornady Custom Lite shells since the recoil is significantly less for her.

I am going to look for a .410 as well and give the 20 gauge to my daughter who is very comfortably with guns.

This one used: https://greatamericanoutdoors.com/2020/04/the-mossberg-shockwave-in-410-gauge-a-good-home-defense-shotgun/

I looked at the Shockwave and that is a good option for close range home defense. From all the 7 yard short range "leather wrapped meat target" testing where country boys keep blowing up perfectly good pork ribs and steaks, it looks like with the right load a 12 GA will make a fist sized hole, a 20GA will make a 3" hole, and a 410 will make a 2" hole. Plenty of stopping power with every trigger pull.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

I didn't know what a M134 was.

Googled it, phew! Lots of fun.

I would want a little wagon for toting the ammo

The Henry .410, oh yeah. I was thinking .20 ga or .410 would be the ticket

It has been too GD hot to go shooting on the weekends. All the ranges are closed, but I like driving out to the national forest better anyway. Mom does not need to be hiking in the heat.

She would not necessarily need to purchase anything. Variety for the first day at the range will be revolvers in .22, .38 and .357, a couple different 9 mm. For her I would think a .357 fed .38 Sp would be good. We of course are planning to drive to Nevada, because it would be illegal to loan her a gun in California, even to just let her try it for 5 or 6 shots.

10/22, a Browning pump 22 that is so sweet, I love that thing. AR, Mini 14. There are a couple 12 ga she could try, but she is not too keen on that.

I had a 20 ga auto loader I gave away when we moved, oops. It was too long though, that little Henry .410, me likey, made in America too.

Funny y'all would mention cleaning your guns when the date comes over. My wife would have her dad and a couple brothers cleaning guns when a gentleman would come courting. Dad would then go check the guy's car, any beer or liquor and that was it. Get in the car and leave, don't let me see this car in my driveway again. He liked me. She unwrapped her first Christmas gift from me and it is the standard S&W plastic case they come in. He expressed his approval when she got the paper off, she did not recognize what it was until she opened the case. Little Airweight, fits in her boot perfectly.

[aigel]

Tobra,

I am interested to hear more on this law that does not let you hand someone your gun to try at the range or in a public land shooting area while you are present? Can you point me to it?

Thanks,

G