Miami condo collapse

[rusnak]

I was just talking to one of my partners on our apartment project. We're pouring the first footings and slabs. I mentioned that it's important to make sure the guys pull up the rebar lattice after they've been walking on them. If the rebar is at the bottom of the slab, it's vulnerable to rust from the bottom, which will cause the concrete to crack due to the rust causing expansion. Spiderweb cracks are a sure sign that the concrete has failed and needs to be removed, or the structure may have to be demolished.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by URY914

Billions of yards of concrete have been places on non-epoxy and non-galvanized rebar in millions of building all over the world.

One building falls down after 40 years and now you want all jobs to use epoxy or galvanized bars?

Come on get real.

Just the ones that are around the high tide mark

[Crowbob]

Zilwaukee:

It is the cables that hold all the segments in compression. At Zilwaukee, each cable is about the size of a man's wrist. Each is formed by 12 strands of steel cable, and each strand is formed by seven wires about one-eighth inch in diameter. There will be about 27,000 miles of eighth-inch wire in the completed 1.5-mile-long bridge.

Each cable is stretched with hydraulic jacks, stressed to nearly 200 tons, and then locked in place with tapered steel wedges, a process called post-tensioning...

Cables in the bridge run through galvanized steel ducts that have been cast into each segment. After a bridge span is complete and construction has progressed down the bridge, all the ducts in the completed span are filled with cement grout under high pressure. The grout cures to become concrete, forming another layer of protection for the steel cables.

Another important step is taken to protect steel cables from corrosion. MDOT's policy requires concrete cracks be repaired if they are larger than .004 inches (about the thickness of a human hair). High pressure injection of an epoxy resin makes the repaired area stronger than the concrete was originally and prevents water seepage. Cracks smaller than .004 inches cannot effectively be injected or sealed.

[URY914]

New building code will require all hi rises on the beach to be torn down and replaced with buildings having stainless steel rebar. This will be at no cost to the current owners of the condo units.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by URY914

[COLOR="DarkGreen"This will be at no cost to the current owners of the condo units. [/COLOR]

Yep, Gummint should pay - it's their fault

[greglepore]

Originally Posted by McLovin

My guess is something similar was happening there.
People aren’t keen on spending $15 million to fix “invisible” (hidden from view) problems, and no one expects that ignoring things for a few more years is going to end in the entire building collapsing.

NPR reporting today is instructive. Assessment was 80-200k unit. My local hoa had people ***** about spending 45/per cap on signage. This is going to be the pointy end of a spear.

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by greglepore

NPR reporting today is instructive. Assessment was 80-200k unit. My local hoa had people ***** about spending 45/per cap on signage. This is going to be the pointy end of a spear.

And will likely be part of the debate in litigation assuming there has been discussion amongst owners.

i.e. management providing feedback on costs associated with repairs, owners pushing back on those costs creating delays.

[URY914]

What is the Board to do when the members keep voting down making repairs? When there are by laws which say the Board can't act unless the owners vote and pass the motion to spend the money on repairs. You just sell your unit and find a safer place to live I suppose.

[Googam]

^^^^^

This is a real problem. I serve on the Board of my HOA. We had similar problems, but not as severe as Miami, on our beach front property. The initial estimates were excess of $1 in repairs. Most of the visible damage didn't look extreme so the Owners went skeptical. We convinced an Owner to let us use their unit as a test. Tore up the balcony tile, removed the railings & opened up the area where the building fascia meets the balcony deck. Once the tile was removed, it showed the water proofed concrete deck was pretty much shot. Trapped water had rusted the supporting rebar & leaked back into & under the fascia. Made this presentation to the HOA. Scared the hell out of them. The assessment was approved & the repairs were completed. Big lesson here. NEVER put tile over a water proof deck. It's balcony cancer.

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by URY914

What is the Board to do when the members keep voting down making repairs? When there are by laws which say the Board can't act unless the owners vote and pass the motion to spend the money on repairs. You just sell your unit and find a safer place to live I suppose.

It's a big problem. When something goes wrong they will sue the board. Word to the wise Carry copious amounts of Directors and officers coverage.

[URY914]

I understand that this condo had started the roof work which was the first step to the repairs.

[GH85Carrera]

A story in the paper today said three building had collapsed in Florida. Evidently two collapses in the past brought in the rules of ever 40 year certifications. The Florida legislature is already revisiting that and almost surly will tighten the inspections more. Condo living is about to get a lot more expensive. Key word is living, and not dying in a collapse.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

A story in the paper today said three building had collapsed in Florida. Evidently two collapses in the past brought in the rules of ever 40 year certifications. The Florida legislature is already revisiting that and almost surly will tighten the inspections more. Condo living is about to get a lot more expensive. Key word is living, and not dying in a collapse.

Freudian? Although likely prescient.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

A story in the paper today said three building had collapsed in Florida. Evidently two collapses in the past brought in the rules of ever 40 year certifications. The Florida legislature is already revisiting that and almost surly will tighten the inspections more. Condo living is about to get a lot more expensive. Key word is living, and not dying in a collapse.

Or a lot less expensive as the demand plummets.

[URY914]

I heard today an interview with the mayor of Miami Beach. He said there were 507 buildings in his city over 40 years old.

Good time to be a structural engineer with a PE license.
I bet the lobbyist in Tallahassee for the Florida Engineering Society is very busy these days.

[nota]

Under ground parking WITH

supports under the SALT water level

WITH steel rebar no coating

car hits column

column cracks

salt gets in crack

rust

column fails

building fails

maybe cars under buildings is a BAD IDEA ?
ESP if your building on a sand bar

maybe they need to not allow cars near building supports
or use non-rusting reinforcement in salt contact lower regions [fiberglass or other ?]
over build the lower part of the column 5 or more times

[David]

Witness video along with stupidly long commercial:

[serene911]

New video on CNN shot by a couple that was standing outside the building right before
it fell.They were talking to a few people out on the balconies. The video shows water
gushing in to the ground floor from the garage floor above it.

[A930Rocket]

Originally Posted by serene911

New video on CNN shot by a couple that was standing outside the building right before
it fell.They were talking to a few people out on the balconies. The video shows water
gushing in to the ground floor from the garage floor above it.

Originally Posted by David

Witness video along with stupidly long commercial:

That doesn’t look right.

Building anything that extends beyond the water table is just plain stupid. You will never ever win with water constantly fighting to get in. Add salt water and it gets worse.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by URY914

What is the Board to do when the members keep voting down making repairs? When there are by laws which say the Board can't act unless the owners vote and pass the motion to spend the money on repairs. You just sell your unit and find a safer place to live I suppose.

Document copiously, resign from the board, and sell your unit. Maybe in the reverse order, given real estate disclosure laws.