Miami condo collapse

[dad911]

Originally Posted by john70t

Looks like the ground itself collapsed into a sinkhole.

At first I though those were just to hold up a wrap-around walkway, but that could be the corner of the building.

There were 2 levels of parking. I believe we are seeing the upper level dropped onto the lower level. Lower level extended under the pool deck. Full set of plans, along with other docs online here: https://townofsurfsidefl.gov/departments-services/town-clerk/champlain-towers-public-records-documents

Lower level parking:


Edit: I believe we are seeing the upper level parking and pool deck dropped onto the lower level.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by javadog

This is not good. Something that too many architects, engineers and builders don't give enough thought to:

Interesting how the fence has toppled with nothing on it.

When the foundation gives way, all bets are off.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by john70t

Looks like the ground itself collapsed into a sinkhole.

At first I though those were just to hold up a wrap-around walkway, but that could be the corner of the building.

If you are referring to the two pieces of rebar sticking out of each side of the columns in the parking garage, those originally tied the parking garage slab to the columns, as I pointed out earlier.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by pmax

When the foundation gives way, all bets are off.

The foundation didn't give way in that section of the building. All of the columns are still there, indicating that the foundation is intact. The entire slab failed where it attached to the columns and it dropped to the level below, as far as it could until it encountered (and crushed) the cars below it. Those columns didn't have much of a load on them, just the weight of one floor of parking.

No idea what the foundation did in the area where the building collapsed.

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by javadog

Really? Geebus...










You implied that the distance between supports for the floor slabs was likely less than needed (ad thus obviating the need for post tensioned cables) because of the presence of interior partitions. That is only true if the interior partitions are load bearing.

I pointed out that most interior partitions were not load bearing.

You then said you could hide a column in them.

See if you can figure it out from there. It's too stupid for me to spend any more time on it.

The conversation was whether the slabs were in fact post tensioned or conventional slabs. I commented that in my experience, post tensioned slabs were a solution when large uninterrupted floors are a goal.

A residential building has interior partitions that allow for concealment of columns. I never said the partitions would be load bearing.

Not sure why you felt the need to go from 0-******* so quickly but have a nice day.


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[LEAKYSEALS951]

Found some pics pre collapse of the patio/upper parking. Using Dad911's "champlain towers south" blueprint title leads to some pics of the place in better times. Interiors were pretty snazzy.

https://www.miamicondoinvestments.com/champlain-towers-south-condos

Random crack pic- related? I dunno. just throwing it in.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/o7jj9f/a_crack_in_champlain_towers_south_exactly_where/

[javadog]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

What are the 2 bright flashes at the beginning of the collapse video? Maybe power cables being severed but looks too bright for that. Lightning strike? I've seen unbelievable structural damage from lightning. If there was roofing work being done, there are three common collapse occurrences: plugged roof drains causing water ponding (extreme weight), improper storage of new roofing materials/equipment causing localized stress, and fire from torches. Deterioration of concrete may in fact be the cause but a total collapse from that would be somewhat surprising to me. Roof (or other construction) work would be the first thing I'd need to rule in or out. -- retired forensic structural engineer.

I'd imagine they were electrical cables. There would have been at least a couple good size panels up there, to feed the rooftop A/C units and (possibly) the elevators.

The roof replacement permit was for 5800 sq. ft., which is a little less than a quarter of the total roof area. I don't know what section was being redone but they did a moisture survey and the worst areas of that were in the area where the collapse seems to have started. Although, an inspector was up there 14 hours before the collapse and didn't see enough equipment and supplies to warrant any concern.

The lady that was on the phone and actually in the building during the collapse stated that the first thing she saw was the collapse of the upper parking slab between the building and the pool. That seems to have failed at the column-to-slab connections. I wonder if that collapse could have damaged some columns enough to trigger their failure? I wouldn't think so but there may have been some differential settlement over the last 40 years and that may have changed to loads on individual columns. An engineer was quoted as having measured settlement of 2mm/year there, in the 1990's.

[URY914]

^^^ You would have thought they would have taken the website down by now.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by URY914

^^^ You would have thought they would have taken the website down by now.

Yes, it looks quite nice in the pic's - would have fooled me. It looks nicely maintained. I feel sorry for the person who bought just before it fell down

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

Yes, it looks quite nice in the pic's - would have fooled me. It looks nicely maintained. I feel sorry for the person who bought just before it fell down

Only if they were in it. Otherwise, I'd like to think that anyone that owned but wasn't in it would have had insurance. That's assuming the ins co doesn't try to wriggle out of paying.

[David]

I've been really impressed with city of Surfside's transparency with documents related to this. It appears all documents they have have been put online.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by David

I've been really impressed with city of Surfside's transparency with documents related to this. It appears all documents they have have been put online.

I believe they need to make the records available upon request. Freedom Of Information Acts/Public record requests. In NJ it's called an OPRA request.

They put them online because they are probably overwhelmed with requests.

[stevej37]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/myriam-arnie-notkin-phone-surfside-condo_n_60d9b16fe4b072e7c98984d0

[javadog]

I took a look through the drawings (which were a total mess) and the building was built on piles. No real details on the piles or the geotech info. There was a change to the pile design or type in Jan 1980, although I have no idea what the change was, or if it was before or during construction.

[javadog]

https://nypost.com/2021/06/28/former-maintenance-manager-reacts-to-florida-condo-collapse/

[URY914]

Originally Posted by dad911

I believe they need to make the records available upon request. Freedom Of Information Acts/Public record requests. In NJ it's called an OPRA request.

They put them online because they are probably overwhelmed with requests.

Actually due to Florida's Sunshine Law nearly all documents are public access. No need to ask.

[thor66]

what do we know about the substrate it was built on, and any changes to it over 40 years?

[craigster59]

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html

Two days before condo collapse, a pool contractor photographed this damage in garage

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by craigster59

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html

Two days before condo collapse, a pool contractor photographed this damage in garage

Wow, it just gets worse. Was really hoping for some sort of unanticipated issue like sinkhole.

All of these missed red flags makes it that much more heartbreaking for those who’ve lost loved ones.


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[Bill Douglas]

Rusting rebar. Poor quality concrete... It would have helped to at least have galvanised rebar.