Miami condo collapse

[greglepore]

Originally Posted by drcoastline

I certainly understand why you wouldn't buy a car that someone died in. That is the same reason why it must be disclosed if someone was murdered in a house, there is a stigma. I am not sure about just passing away, as in old age if that needs to be disclosed?

If the car that had a person die in it is parted out do the parts need to be disclosed where they came from? You may recall two incidents? 11/11/85 (my birthday) Pelle Lindbergh goalie for the Flyers crashed his 930 and was killed. His car was being stored at my friend's shop. There wasn't much left to salvage, rear bumper rear wheels but if it were parted should that be disclosed? In the 1990's NYC mob boss Paul Castellano was murdered getting out of his Lincoln. His driver was also shot and died in the car. If the Lincoln was cleaned the windshield replaced and the car sold. Should that be disclosed? Are they the same Pelle's car and Castellano's? Do they carry the same stigma?

In the case of the condo the entire structure is gone and will be replaced with new. Is that the same as being built on an ancient Indian burial ground? Is that the same as the new house built on the location of the Tate murder or just a tragic incident that has nothing to do with the new structure?

Man, you're younger than I thought...I remember that day like it was yesterday. Pelle was well loved in Philly. And those poor girls in his car...

As to disclosing the fact that a murder occurred in a house-hot enough topic that it gets discussed in real estate classes and law schools. States are all over the place as to whether it is material or not. Pennsylvania says its not material. https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/milliken-v-jacono-home-seller-not-requ-28469/

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by greglepore

Man, you're younger than I thought...I remember that day like it was yesterday. Pelle was well loved in Philly. And those poor girls in his car...

As to disclosing the fact that a murder occurred in a house-hot enough topic that it gets discussed in real estate classes and law schools. States are all over the place as to whether it is material or not. Pennsylvania says its not material. https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/milliken-v-jacono-home-seller-not-requ-28469/

Hahah, 11/11 the day is my birthday but not 1985. I was two years out of high school when the accident occurred. It was huge news.

I would agree a murder is not a "material defect" but in some places it must be disclosed. I would also think the collapse of the old building, deaths subsequent demolition is not a "material defect" on the new building.

[drcoastline]

The pool is in and they are still pumping. So you can now see how this pool is very similar to the garage of the condo. If the water table rose during the curing period of the concrete 9the green phase) and they did not relive the pressure the concrete probably cracked. The tide rises and recedes two times per day, add a storm and the water table rises. As the concrete cures it gains more and more PSI until it reaches full cure.

[TimT]

Not sure how closely the water table level matches the tides...

But that pool looks only 3-4 feet deep... Not sure if there is a deep end

Say the tide and water table elevation match inch for inch, the still would be only be a small amount of horizontal pressure on the walls......

Then there is buoyancy... you could float that pool right out of the ground..

The contactor should partially fill the pool to make horizontal pressure and bouyancy close to zero...

[A930Rocket]

I’ve always read concrete cures 90% in 28 days.

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by TimT

Not sure how closely the water table level matches the tides...

But that pool looks only 3-4 feet deep... Not sure if there is a deep end

Say the tide and water table elevation match inch for inch, the still would be only be a small amount of horizontal pressure on the walls......

Then there is buoyancy... you could float that pool right out of the ground..

The contactor should partially fill the pool to make horizontal pressure and bouyancy close to zero...

This is a barrier island the pool is in the water table, which moves up and down based on tide. Higher during a full moon, storm, etc., lower at other times. That is why there are pumps. as the water seeps into the hole the pumps pump it out.

The walls are not the issue, the floor is the issue especially at this stage where the concrete is still green. If they did not have the pumps running to keep the pressure down the pool would do exactly as you say, it would try and float. The upward pressure would crack the pool floor. When the pool is ready to be filled they will fill it equalizing or exceeding the pressure then remove the pumps.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by drcoastline

This is a barrier island the pool is in the water table, which moves up and down based on tide. Higher during a full moon, storm, etc., lower at other times. That is why there are pumps. as the water seeps into the hole the pumps pump it out.

The walls are not the issue, the floor is the issue especially at this stage where the concrete is still green. If they did not have the pumps running to keep the pressure down the pool would do exactly as you say, it would try and float. The upward pressure would crack the pool floor. When the pool is ready to be filled they will fill it equalizing or exceeding the pressure then remove the pumps.

Interesting.

Currently have a pool being finished, waiting for plaster this week.

Our builder popped 3-4" holes in the floor at the corners to deal with hydrostatic pressure.

Basically any water will flow into the pool relieving pressure and somewhat equalizing pressure.


Obviously when they plaster they will close the holes first.

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Interesting.

Currently have a pool being finished, waiting for plaster this week.

Our builder popped 3-4" holes in the floor at the corners to deal with hydrostatic pressure.

Basically any water will flow into the pool relieving pressure and somewhat equalizing pressure.


Obviously when they plaster they will close the holes first.

Think of a pool as a boat. Certainly drilling holes will work, just like a boat, fill it full of holes and it will sink. In the case of the pool where I am it is like the boat being in dry dock or on a beach when the tide goes out. Put the boat in the slip and pump the water out.

[URY914]

This thread has jumped the condo.....

[nota]

was a good story in the miami paper about the data called house of cards

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/special-reports/surfside-investigation/article256633336.html

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by URY914

This thread has jumped the condo.....

No it is still on track, just trying to give a little insight as to how the below grade garage was probably built and why they saw water coming and going even with out a storm.

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

Even with the gross weight of the pool won't the changing water table eventually create a problem?

Sorry flattbutt I didn't mean to ignore your question. No once filled with water the pool will have a greater displacement of the water so it will stay put. If they drain to much water out that could be a problem.

[wilnj]

A floating pool cost a family friend his home and his marriage.

He was in the trades and decided to diy his own concrete pool, hiring friends to help, dog, form, plumb and wire, reinforce, etc.

The pool was poured right before hurricane Irene and he didn’t know he should partially fill it as soon as it cured.

The pool floated, had to be busted up and thrown away. In the emotional fallout of all of that, he and his wife divorced.

[URY914]

Back on topic....sorta:

https://news.yahoo.com/surfside-florida-votes-mayor-condo-133549312.html

[URY914]

In related news.....

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/evacuations-ordered-florida-building-deemed-unsafe-not-far-site-surfsi-rcna22897

[daepp]

OT: My cousin, who lives a little west on New Orleans, took these of his neighbor's pool. it sat flush with the pool deck for many years. Then hurricane Isaac came through. Their houses survived fairly well, but the pool filled with mud. The owner waited - but not long enough - and began to pump out the mud. Then it was a total loss.

[john70t]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/victims-of-surfside-condo-collapse-reach-997-million-settlement/ar-AAXatzG?ocid=winp2sv1plus&cvid=0634fb49bfab4487a37c7966dde76d2c

Victims of the 2021 condo tower collapse in Surfside, Fla., have reached a proposed $997 million settlement to resolve wrongful death claims against defendants sued over the building’s failure.

The payout, announced in a court hearing Wednesday, would settle claims brought by family members of the 98 victims of the collapse of Champlain Towers South last June.

Defendants in the case included the building’s insurers, developers of a neighboring condo building, an engineering firm that warned of the tower’s structural issues before its collapse and others.

The settlement is much higher than most lawyers initially expected. The initial pool of insurance money to settle both claims for victims who lost their homes and those who lost family members was $50 million.

[MBAtarga]

So the engineering firm that warned of the issue was found liable? (at least partially)
How is that?

[john70t]

Look at the Plaintiffs. That is all.

[dad911]

I was in an association like that. They deferred maintenance and actually hid engineering reports to keep the HOA fees artificially low.

Every board member that delayed or voted against repairs has blood on their hands, and should lose their equity. Instead, the payouts are approximately 6 million per unit. Quite a windfall for a POS property.