Vaccines are moving the needle...

[Sooner or later]

Mayo calls them vaccines
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/different-types-of-covid-19-vaccines/art-20506465

Harvard Medical calls them vaccines
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/why-are-mrna-vaccines-so-exciting-2020121021599

European Commission cslls the vaccines
https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/five-things-you-need-know-about-mrna-vaccine-safety

Yale Medicine calls them vaccines
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison

Canada calls them vsccines
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health-products/covid19-industry/drugs-vaccines-treatments/vaccines/type-mrna.html

Penn Medicine calls them vaccines
https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-blog/2021/april/how-mrna-vaccines-could-prevent-or-eliminate-infectious-diseases-beyond-covid19

[Steve Carlton]

Originally Posted by john70t

Doesn't that contradict it's very purpose?

Read the Reuters link or search online. In that link it says "Both the Moderna and the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines use new messenger RNA (mRNA) technology, which contains instructions for human cells to make proteins that mimic part of the novel coronavirus. The instructions spur the immune system into action, turning the body into a virus-zapping vaccine factory. No actual virus is contained in the vaccines (here)."

The mRNA vaccines have the cells make an enemy protein that a traditional vaccine would normally introduce directly. This feature allows mRNA vaccines to changeable so the protein the cells make can follow the variants as necessary.

[john70t]

So it's like installing a master key to the body's immune system.
Great idea. What could go wrong?

[speeder]

Originally Posted by john70t

So it's like installing a master key to the body's immune system.
Great idea. What could go wrong?

Maybe visit a local university and try to get someone to explain it to you. We don’t seem to be having much luck here. Being ignorant and only influenced by people intentionally trying to mislead you is no way to go through life.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by speeder

Being ignorant and only influenced by people intentionally trying to mislead you is no way to go through life.

Well, dad, I only planned on fat drunk and stupid so I guess that's progress.

Btw was there anything I typed which was factually incorrect?
You seem to be qualified to answer better than I.

[cabmandone]

John,
It's not really installing a master key to the immune system. What it does is train the immune system to recognize a protein as a threat. Vaccines train the immune system to recognize a potential threat. Moderna and Pfizer just uses a different mechanism to present that threat.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by john70t

Btw was there anything I typed which was factually incorrect?

Yes.

[Steve Carlton]

Originally Posted by john70t

mRNA is a gene modifier. Not a vaccine.

A genetic splicer pierces the core of the cell to modify the very identity of the organism.
A vaccine externally and passively exposes the immune system to something new.

Everything here is incorrect, except the mRNA vaccine has your cells generate a portion of the protein seen on the virus. The actual virus uses your cells manufacturing ability to make more of itself.

[john70t]

Only a little bit of unused portion? That's a bold statement.

If that section of RNA is now a receptor site for future 'vax' modifiers, and already there is the Delta variant this year, who's to say the gene is not compromised to other diseases or human defects in the future?

Ever hear about the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle?
Opening up 100,000 yrs of evolution and developed resistance to the world will result in one thing.

[Steve Carlton]

Originally Posted by john70t

Only a little bit of unused portion? That's a bold statement.

What does this mean?

Originally Posted by john70t

If that section of RNA is now a receptor site for future 'vax' modifiers, and already there is the Delta variant this year, who's to say the gene is not compromised to other diseases or human defects in the future?

I don't know what you're saying here. A section of RNA is not a receptor site. The mRNA vaccines can be somewhat easily changed (modified) the tell the recipient's cells to make a different protein that would appear on a future variant.

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/therapy/mrnavaccines/#:~:text=Messenger%20RNA%20is%20a%20type,does%20no t%20alter%20DNA.

Originally Posted by john70t

Ever hear about the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle?

Yes- I'm familiar. What does it mean to you?

Originally Posted by john70t

Opening up 100,000 yrs of evolution and developed resistance to the world will result in one thing.

How do you think an mRNA vaccine will do what, exactly?

[hbueno]

Ignorance is the softest pillow on which a man can rest his head.

-Michel de Montaigne

[Steve Carlton]

Some interesting points from MSM today...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/briefing/vaccine-immunity-booster-shots.html

August 30, 2021

By David Leonhardt

Good morning. Vaccine immunity may not really be waning much — which means universal booster shots may do little good.
A mobile vaccine clinic in West Palm Beach, Fla., this month.Saul Martinez for The New York Times
The booster-industrial complex

Late last month, researchers in Israel released some alarming new Covid-19 data. The data showed that many Israelis who had been among the first to receive the vaccine were nonetheless catching the Covid virus. Israelis who had been vaccinated later were not getting infected as often.

The study led to headlines around the world about waning immunity — the idea that vaccines lose their effectiveness over time. In the U.S., the Israeli study accelerated a debate about vaccine booster shots and played a role in the Biden administration’s recent recommendation that all Americans receive a booster shot eight months after their second dose.

But the real story about waning immunity is more complex than the initial headlines suggested. Some scientists believe that the Israeli data was misleading and that U.S. policy on booster shots has gotten ahead of the facts. The evidence for waning immunity is murky, these scientists say, and booster shots may not have a big effect.

After returning from an August break last week, I have spent time reaching out to scientists to ask for their help in understanding the current, confusing stage of the pandemic. How worried should vaccinated people be about the Delta variant? How much risk do children face? Which parts of the Covid story are being overhyped, and which deserve more attention?

I will be trying to answer these questions in the coming weeks. (I’d also like to know what questions you want answered; submit them here.)

One of the main messages I’m hearing from the experts is that conventional wisdom about waning immunity is problematic. Yes, the immunity from the Covid vaccines will wane at some point. But it may not yet have waned in a meaningful way.

“There’s a big difference between needing another shot every six months versus every five years,” Dr. David Dowdy, an epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins University, told me. “So far, looking at the data we have, I’m not seeing much evidence that we’ve reached that point yet.”
Simpson strikes again

At first glance, the Israeli data seems straightforward: People who had been vaccinated in the winter were more likely to contract the virus this summer than people who had been vaccinated in the spring.

Yet it would truly be proof of waning immunity only if the two groups — the winter and spring vaccine recipients — were otherwise similar to each other. If not, the other differences between them might be the real reason for the gap in the Covid rates.

As it turns out, the two groups were different. The first Israelis to have received the vaccine tended to be more affluent and educated. By coincidence, these same groups later were among the first exposed to the Delta variant, perhaps because they were more likely to travel. Their higher infection rate may have stemmed from the new risks they were taking, not any change in their vaccine protection.

Statisticians have a name for this possibility — when topline statistics point to a false conclusion that disappears when you examine subgroups. It’s called Simpson’s Paradox.

This paradox may also explain some of the U.S. data that the C.D.C. has cited to justify booster shots. Many Americans began to resume more indoor activities this spring. That more were getting Covid may reflect their newfound Covid exposure (as well as the arrival of Delta), rather than any waning of immunity over time.
‘Where is it?’

Sure enough, other data supports the notion that vaccine immunity is not waning much.

The ratio of positive Covid tests among older adults and children, for example, does not seem to be changing, Dowdy notes. If waning immunity were a major problem, we should expect to see a faster rise in Covid cases among older people (who were among the first to receive shots). And even the Israeli analysis showed that the vaccines continued to prevent serious Covid illness at essentially the same rate as before.

“If there’s data proving the need for boosters, where is it?” Zeynep Tufekci, the sociologist and Times columnist, has written.

Part of the problem is that the waning-immunity story line is irresistible to many people. The vaccine makers — Pfizer, Moderna and others — have an incentive to promote it, because booster shots will bring them big profits. The C.D.C. and F.D.A., for their part, have a history of extreme caution, even when it harms public health. We in the media tend to suffer from bad-news bias. And many Americans are so understandably frightened by Covid that they pay more attention to alarming signs than reassuring ones.
The bottom line

Here’s my best attempt to give you an objective summary of the evidence, free from alarmism — and acknowledging uncertainty:

Immunity does probably wane modestly within the first year of receiving a shot. For this reason, booster shots make sense for vulnerable people, many experts believe. As Dr. Céline Gounder of Bellevue Hospital Center told my colleague Apoorva Mandavilli, the C.D.C.’s data “support giving additional doses of vaccine to highly immunocompromised persons and nursing home residents, not to the general public.”

The current booster shots may do little good for most people. The vaccines continue to provide excellent protection against illness (as opposed to merely a positive Covid test). People will eventually need boosters, but it may make more sense to wait for one specifically designed to combat a variant. “We don’t know whether a non-Delta booster would improve protection against Delta,” Dr. Aaron Richterman of the University of Pennsylvania told me.

A national policy of frequent booster shots has significant costs, financially and otherwise. Among other things, the exaggerated discussion of waning immunity contributes to vaccine skepticism.

While Americans are focusing on booster shots, other policies may do much more to beat back Covid, including more vaccine mandates in the U.S.; a more rapid push to vaccinate the world (and prevent other variants from taking root); and an accelerated F.D.A. study of vaccines for children.

As always, we should be open to changing our minds as we get new evidence. As Richterman puts it, “We have time to gather the appropriate evidence before rushing into boosters.”

[speeder]

In my recent travels, I've met nurses on two occasions who work in large hospitals in cities. All haver said the same thing; that it is very difficult for them to find sympathy for unvaccinated people that wind up in their ICUs. At this point in time, we are experiencing a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

Neither times did the nurses strike me as extreme lefty, antifa/BLM types...in fact, just the opposite. The first encounter was with two from Texas who struck me as conservative in general. These were just conversations with people traveling. Virtually no one is winding up in a hospital who is vaccinated unless they are 80 years old. Younger and younger people are who are unvaccinated, due to the Delta variant.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

What does this mean? Yes- I'm familiar. What does it mean to you?

It means that fundamentally and permanently altering a structure (the human genome) leads to it being vulnerable to new external challenges. We modern humans have survived world-wide waves of virii and bacterial and become the dominant species through natural adaptation and our structures have allowed this. Our bodies contain 10x as many bacterial cells as "human" and they are spliced and intertwined with our own genetics. We exist in a synthesis with nature.

You cant fk with something without completely altering it.

So similar to Monsanto splicing the Round-Up resistance gene into vegetable DNA, this mRNA seems to be spliced into our own cellular communication.

We've been studying genetic for what half a century and are still infancy, and then along the road here comes a powerful core group of "medicinal experts" who suddenly want to alter the entirety of humanity? How many engines have been blown up before the turbo waste-gate was figured out? And that's relatively basic engineering.....not genetic with potential environmental engineering. Oh and Win10 still crashes on a regular basis. Good thing there is a reset button. Thanks but no thanks, I won't be first in that line.

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

I don't know what you're saying here. A section of RNA is not a receptor site. The mRNA vaccines can be somewhat easily changed (modified) the tell the recipient's cells to make a different protein that would appear on a future variant.

I'm understanding RNA was a parallel source code to DNA which became subservient to it?
(that's my KISS understanding)
https://www.britannica.com/science/RNA
"This chemical lability of RNA, compared with DNA, which does not have a reactive −OH group in the same position on the sugar moiety (deoxyribose), is thought to be one reason why DNA evolved to be the preferred carrier of genetic information in most organisms. "

So the idea is to control the output instead of the DNA itself?
The RNA is just a translator and assistant?
What if that all goes wrong? What if that translator instructs the functional systems or DNA to do the wrong things?
The number of vaccine-related incidences is growing exponentially.

per the website link: "Most vaccines contain a weakened or killed bacteria or virus. However, scientists have developed a new type of vaccine that uses a molecule called messenger RNA (or mRNA for short) rather than part of an actual bacteria or virus"
I think they are using the definition of "vaccine" incorrectly again.
A forced alteration of the cell from within is not a vaccine. It is a virus.
Say it and thousand times still doesn't make it so.

[island911]

Originally Posted by speeder

In my recent travels, I've met nurses on two occasions who work in large hospitals in cities. All haver said the same thing; that it is very difficult for them to find sympathy for unvaccinated people that wind up in their ICUs. At this point in time, we are experiencing a pandemic of the unvaccinated. ...

What about sympathy for fat people who end up there with the much more deadly heart disease? Are they like OMG, she's so FAT. She deserves to die. How are we expected to have any sympathy for her over-fed piehole clogged heart? ?

Or is their lack of sympathy only for those who don't get a vaccine, like fit 20 y/o's who skip the jab? - the ones who come to hospital for a track injury and are shamed for not being vax'd.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by hbueno

Ignorance is the softest pillow on which a man can rest his head.

-Michel de Montaigne

Agreed.

At least four different variations of an injected substance from as many manufacturers (if you don't include the iron/graphene carrier test-trials) and people still say it's "The Vax" and believe they are cured forever.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by john70t

Agreed.

At least four different variations of an injected substance from as many manufacturers (if you don't include the iron/graphene carrier test-trials) and people still say it's "The Vax" and believe they are cured forever.

That's the mouse in your pocket talking to you, not anyone here or in legit media.

[Aurel]

In theory, mRNA does not alter DNA, since it is the messenger created form it.

However, there is this thing called reverse transcription, which according to some PhDs in this field, could be happening with SARS COV-2 mRNA. So, John70t may be be onto something…

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.12.422516v1

[black73]

He's a genius!

[Skillet83]

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/pfizer-board-member-warns-policymakers-natural-immunity-needs-be-included-covid-mandate