Porsche is facing troubling times ahead, schadenfreude anyone ?

[wdfifteen]

I don’t care. Porsche used to build quirky, flawed, but interesting cars. Now they build water cooled SUVs, for God’s sake. As far as I’m concerned Porsche is just another car company. Maybe one of the car conglomerates will buy them out and start slapping the Porsche name on more profitable platforms.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

I don’t care. Porsche used to build quirky, flawed, but interesting cars. Now they build water cooled SUVs, for God’s sake. As far as I’m concerned Porsche is just another car company.

+1
To use an old expression, Ferry is rolling over in his grave"

[DWBOX2000]

Pca podcast recently said average cost of a bare bone new 911 with zero options (that you can’t get) start at 130k. Average salary of those buying new 911’s is 800k plus.
Personally they do nothing for me, too much tech.

[KNS]

^^

I don't think Porsche cares. As long as there are enough people lining up to pay silly prices for 911s, they are going to stick with their current business model. I think it was said somewhere in this thread, If Porsche can make more money selling smaller numbers of high priced GT models and limited edition 911s, vs larger numbers of regular cars (produce less cars = make more money) why would they change?

[rfuerst911sc]

Oliver Blume is resigning as CEO of Porsche . He will remain CEO of VW . It will be interesting to see who will be nominated to guide Porsche out of their current situation .

https://www.dw.com/en/porsche-ceo-oliver-blume-to-step-down/a-74396761

[montauk]

Porsche sold ~40k cars a year in the ’70s and ’80s; now it’s closer to 300k. Still not a giant, but a very different scale—and SUVs are a big part of that. Hard to blame them; if they only built the cars we enthusiasts want, at the prices we want, they wouldn’t survive. Personally, I have zero interest in a new 911. I was behind one in my own the other day and, sure, it’s impressive—but it looks more like a grand tourer than a sports car to me.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Porsche’s biggest business problem is doubling down on EV, especially for their SUV models that drive volume and profit. Like most German automakers they failed to consider fairly tepid consumer demand for EVs and are now paying the price. Building an entirely new Macan designed to be EV only was a huge mistake that it’s going to take some time to recover from.

If we’re being real about this conversation, the only actually affordable Porsches were used Porsches. My first 911 was $4500 in 2002, I was dirt poor and it was my daily driver. But I could still afford a running and driving 911! Fast forward to today and that ship has sailed, the combination of Porsche becoming a snob status symbol and used prices going crazy has pretty effectively killed the working class enthusiast portion of the marque. Which I find to be really sad, but such is life.

[montauk]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Porsche’s biggest business problem is doubling down on EV, especially for their SUV models that drive volume and profit. Like most German automakers they failed to consider fairly tepid consumer demand for EVs and are now paying the price. Building an entirely new Macan designed to be EV only was a huge mistake that it’s going to take some time to recover from.

If we’re being real about this conversation, the only actually affordable Porsches were used Porsches. My first 911 was $4500 in 2002, I was dirt poor and it was my daily driver. But I could still afford a running and driving 911! Fast forward to today and that ship has sailed, the combination of Porsche becoming a snob status symbol and used prices going crazy has pretty effectively killed the working class enthusiast portion of the marque. Which I find to be really sad, but such is life.

Aren't early Boxsters affordable? They are a blast to drive.

[Chocaholic]

There are demographic differences to consider vs our “good ol days” also at play. With few exceptions, young people are not the gear heads we were. Cars were our toys vs video games. There were no computers or smartphones. The market for a bare bones, stick shift sports car with quirky handling and a crappy sound system are gone, save for a few of us old farts. The motorcycle industry is going through a similar evolution.

Note also that as incomes went up, so did the cost of living (inflation). If you want to measure Porsche’s price increases, do so against disposable income, not W2. Porsche tried to follow Ferrari at a time when the market was becoming distracted. Sort of the perfect storm.

[rfuerst911sc]

A big part of the problem for Porsche and all other euro car companies is meeting the strict and getting stricter euro emissions regulations . EV was a way of getting there . But going whole hog in on EV is a mistake . As Porsche and others are finding out .

There needs to be a balance and that is a tough philosophy to carry out . Not only are sales at stake but so are jobs . Just my opinion . And as others have stated Porsche needs to design and sell an entry level product . One entry level sports car and one entry level SUV . Whether we like it or not SUV' s are big sellers you have to provide what the market demands .

Like others I have no interest in any current Porsche models , at least not new . Used is a different story . For now I am happy with my 986S and 996C4 . They are what I consider modern analog . New enough to have modern amenities but old enough to give good chassis driver feedback .

[jrj3rd]

Porsche is not primarily a sports car company regardless of what we enthusiasts want, they are an aoutomobile company that builds SUVs and sedans and some halo sports cars and price things accordingly. All the complaints about added technology and costs increasing faster than inflation completely neglegt the effect of government regulations. We dont want all the nannys in our sports cars but regulations give them no option to delete. All that extra technology has increased the complexity of the vehicle and some of it has caused the reliance on computers to do diagnostics. You can no longer design and sell a car that does not have multiple levels of computer oversite. Maybe we should all actually thank Porsche for continuing to build some sports cars. As a corporation they could shift further toward Macans, and speculation is they are looking at a smaller SUV to further up profits. Those profits pay for the engineering research and development that ultimately results in the cars we love. At the dealer level it is also the SUVs that keep the lights on.

[aschen]

I don't disagree with the disdain for modern porsche practices, but the counterpoint is what should they have done different?

Charge less for cars when the secondary market was over retail? Start a lottery for allocations instead of giving them to the suckers that were willing to buy 1/2 million in less desirable cars at full retail?

I get it I think the tactics suck but they are a company and profit maximizing is the goal. I would say quit building so many mecans and flood the market with GT3 right up to the equilibrium point with MSRP.

Porsche sports cars are still the most compelling at their pricepoints in many/most cases.

On the one hand I cant believe a 718 4.0 with 6mt and buckets is 125k, on the other hand there is no other new car Id rather have for 125k. A ginormous M4 or auto only still too big C8? Emira maybe if you have lotus pain tolerance.

180k for a regular 911 is crazy but again what else would you buy at that price point? Everything else is going to be 4000 lbs.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by montauk

Aren't early Boxsters affordable? They are a blast to drive.

Yes, they are the only affordable Porsche left. Agreed they are a blast, I just don’t love convertibles.

Originally Posted by aschen

I don't disagree with the disdain for modern porsche practices, but the counterpoint is what should they have done different?

Charge less for cars when the secondary market was over retail? Start a lottery for allocations instead of giving them to the suckers that were willing to buy 1/2 million in less desirable cars at full retail?

I get it I think the tactics suck but they are a company and profit maximizing is the goal. I would say quit building so many mecans and flood the market with GT3 right up to the equilibrium point with MSRP.

Porsche sports cars are still the most compelling at their pricepoints in many/most cases.

On the one hand I cant believe a 718 4.0 with 6mt and buckets is 125k, on the other hand there is no other new car Id rather have for 125k. A ginormous M4 or auto only still too big C8? Emira maybe if you have lotus pain tolerance.

180k for a regular 911 is crazy but again what else would you buy at that price point? Everything else is going to be 4000 lbs.

$125k for a 718 and $180k for a 911, I could make a list of more appealing cars. Especially if you include used. But your point is well taken, ALL new cars have gotten very expensive.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

ALL new cars have gotten very expensive.

The average price of a car in the US topped $50k this week.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by aschen

I don't disagree with the disdain for modern porsche practices, but the counterpoint is what should they have done different?

I do not disagree with you at all.. This is not an "I wish they would subsidize me" post, this is a "too bad, so sad, an era is gone forever". Talking about the 718 4.0 which is actually my halo car after sliding one at PECLA, my regret with that situation is that somehow we're experiencing pretty much zero depreciation on these desirable cars (not even a GT model). Also not their fault directly unless you count limiting the supply and raising prices substantially.. What could they have done differently? maybe not switch to that "produce less, sell for more, refocus on whales" model, not spend so much $ on influencers and instagram and not adopt a ferrari sales model and maybe focus more on fixing technical issues like bore scoring, not giving us 4 cylinder boxsters (listen to your customers ! then again those might be my only hope at depreciation, gotta try one). Seems they went "lifestyle brand" more than engineering of late... But yeah, you're not wrong they're here to make a buck but I guess the tide is turning on that too, they are struggling now and it feels like payback, a bit. My point was they've done all this to go upmarket and it was a conscious decision, and cars we enthusiasts used to be able to reach are now unreachable. I think long term it's detrimental to a brand to lose the enthusiast (can't tell you how many people I've "converted" over the years.. no more). So I am not feeling too sad that they are now facing hard times and just got punched in the mouth by the market changes.. More of a commiseration post, apparently I'm not alone and I'm about to give up on a brand I've loved for 40 years... (and that was still meant for OT initially, sorry mods, thx for moving it)

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Fast forward to today and that ship has sailed, the combination of Porsche becoming a snob status symbol and used prices going crazy has pretty effectively killed the working class enthusiast portion of the marque. Which I find to be really sad, but such is life.

the above, 100% my point I guess.. too bad, it's gone... May look at miatas instead ;-) non interference, no bore scoring, no IMS issues (and no power, but hey!)

[aschen]

I wish you lived closer so I could let you drive my manual 4cyl cayman GTS.

Its a fantastic car in every way. Purchased preowned with 9000 miles for 70k. The engine is (likely) a whole lot better than you may think.


At least we still have the miata. Ironically the gr86 is pretty much exactly a modern 968 in ethos. Another great in expensive sports car. Also 4 cyl

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by aschen

I wish you lived closer so I could let you drive my manual 4cyl cayman GTS.
Its a fantastic car in every way. Purchased preowned with 9000 miles for 70k. The engine is (likely) a whole lot better than you may think.
At least we still have the miata. Ironically the gr86 is pretty much exactly a modern 968 in ethos. Another great in expensive sports car. Also 4 cyl

That is actually very good to hear.. I initially fell for the journalists' tone on those 4cyl not being the classic flat 6, not sounding great etc... but I am totally open to trying them out and appreciate your feedback... the 4.0 6cyl was amazing (I did drive that one hard twice at PECLA), but indeed those 4 cyl are the only ones currently depreciating and that I may consider buying at this point ! For the price of new Carrera T, I could buy a nice summer house in the south of Europe ;-) the 4Cyl may even be modable for base or S cars and it's apparently not susceptible to bore scoring... (my comment on 4 cyl was Porsche not listening to their customers wanting 6s, not really the merit of that car, I am actually very curious about them)

[zakthor]

My perspective on performance shifted when I bought and started commuting on a fast motorcycle. The thing was so fast that I could never wring it out. Power wheelies and 100mph in second got frustrating because I was always feathering its touchy throttle. It turns out speed isn't that much fun and motorbikes are 10x more engaging than a car.

I've driven old and new gts, gt3, gt3rs and... they're quiet and comfortable. The power steering feels numb and... they're way too fast without feeling fast or engaging. Where exactly can I wring it out?

I've got a 930 with improved suspension - its rough and noisy and I love it.

Over past 5 years I've driven several friend's new miatas and that are totally wonderful. I literally cannot comprehend what porch buyers are imagining with these new cars. Too many posters on their bedroom walls.

As sad as porch buyers are at least the cars are reliable. Porsche buyers aren't being abused the manufacturer like the ferrari and mclaren fanboys - I think those things are an actual disease.

[aschen]

Nobody even cares about fast anymore I don't think EVs were the final nail on that coffin.

I was really hopefull for about 15 years that lotus would be the new porsche. They just cant pull off the 90s recovery Porsche did.

Its a shame. The elise/exige are so fun to drive in the right scenario. The right amount of speed, tons of engagement and sounds, so toss able and exciting. Also a bit of suffering for the privilege as part of the experience.

I miss my exige s dearly. I only drove it around 15000 miles in the 12 years I owned it though. I have driven my cayman 17,000 miles in 2 years, took it on road trips, drove 800 miles to PEC with my son. Had a lot of great experiences I wouldn't attempt in a super dramatic car. Compared to an exige it is positively boring though.

I drove my Cayman to work today. Its raining and I didnt look at the weather to see if it would get worse. Exige would only be driven on perfect days to known parking spots.