Porsche is facing troubling times ahead, schadenfreude anyone ?

[faverymi]

I tried to order a mundane low spec simple 911 recently.

Nope.... not possible. Not on the list. Need allocation.

And price point for the base simple 911 was going to be 162.000 plus local taxes and registration.

Fuch this I said..... I'm out.


Now looking for a low spec Mustang Dark horse at 65k. Which they are pilling up in dealerships

Porsche has a deeper problem. Philosophical

[ant7]

I still have the memory of being in school at around 12 years old [this would have been late 1970's] and what drove into the car park one morning almost took my breath away, it was an off white 911 coupe driven by one of the teachers!
Ant.

Originally Posted by montauk

I think you may be starting out with a bit of a strawman. Porsche has always been positioned as an upmarket brand, not really “for the rest of us.” They’ve never been priced like cars that any hard‑working enthusiast could easily afford. For example, my 1980 911SC cost $34,000 when new, while the average U.S. worker’s salary was under $15,000 a year. By contrast, new MGs and Triumphs were around $10,000 at the time—less than a third of the cost of the 911.

As for the idea that Porsche has been hiking prices out of line with history, I’m not sure that’s the case. That same $34,000 in 1980 translates to about $130,000 in today’s dollars, which is right in line with the price of a new 911. Average annual salaries today are around $64,000, so the relationship between income and Porsche pricing hasn’t really changed all that much.

[Mark Salvetti]

I think they have become victims of their own short-term success, and forgot how they got here.

There was usually some attempt at providing an interesting, capable lower-cost alternative. In the 1960s there was the 912. In the 1970s, a 914 and then later the 924. Then the 944. They almost went under when there was no lower cost option, until the savior Boxster.

In that respect, comparisons to the historical costs of a 911 are a little deceiving, because there was usually a capable entry-level Porsche instead of a 911 available at a lower price.

When I graduated college in 1984 as a chemical engineer, a 944 was not that far out of reach at my $28,000 annual salary. I lusted after one (but ended up with an RX-7).

What's the entry-level option now? I don't think you'll be able to find a new Cayman or Boxster for less than $100K.

Mark

[Cairo94507]

I have owned over a dozen Porsches since 1974. Consider myself a loyalist. But I have decided I will not buy another new Porsche. Price is not really an issue, but it bothers me a simple 911 "S" variant is ridiculously priced. On top of that, it makes me crazy they have them loaded with technology and you have to do everything, checking oil included, through a computer screen. Porsche needs to recognize their loyalists want a car they can relate to and do basic service on without taking it to the dealership. I mean $800 for an oil change? Not interested in that.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by montauk

I think you may be starting out with a bit of a strawman. Porsche has always been positioned as an upmarket brand, not really “for the rest of us.” As for the idea that Porsche has been hiking prices out of line with history, I’m not sure that’s the case. That same $34,000 in 1980 translates to about $130,000 in today’s dollars, which is right in line with the price of a new 911. Average annual salaries today are around $64,000, so the relationship between income and Porsche pricing hasn’t really changed all that much.

You're not wrong on inflation, but I think there are other factors at play.. Salaries have completely disconnected from inflation in the last 10 years for one, post covid car prices have skyrocketed, and also the used prices have gone berserk... if I take the price of my first 911 (SC) in the mid to late 90s in today's money, it is 1/2 of what the market is now for a used 911 of any ilk (not the same car, but apples to apples on a used car).
Also back then the dealers were not playing games. I recall buying a 986 new (my first new one) at about 1/2 of what one is today and that does not track with inflation either. I had a shot at a friend's GT3 (used) for $70K 10y ago, comparatively today's GT cars are not depreciating, AT ALL - in some cases you pay more than new MSRP. And back then the dealers did not play the allocation games. So yeah, I hear you in theory - and when I say "for the rest of us" I do not mean it was their brand positioning, but it was how they were to ME - cars I could afford used and possibly new eventually... Can't fault the inflation reasoning to a degree, but I am convinced they moved upmarket ferrari style(covid made that happen IMO when they saw they sold all their GT allocations despite dealers marking up like madmen). In simple ME terms, I still have a decent job but from 1990-2010 I *could* play with used/cpo/occasionally new porsches. Now there is no way I could justify it (even if I could), on a similar "old car age sliding scale, vs then", so something changed.. from other posts I see I am not alone thinking something took a turn.. (still messed up and that was for OT)

[wi54545]

Originally Posted by faverymi

I tried to order a mundane low spec simple 911 recently.

Nope.... not possible. Not on the list. Need allocation.

And price point for the base simple 911 was going to be 162.000 plus local taxes and registration.

Fuch this I said..... I'm out.


Now looking for a low spec Mustang Dark horse at 65k. Which they are pilling up in dealerships

Porsche has a deeper problem. Philosophical

Go to your local BMW dealer and check out a g87 M2. Absolutely love mine! Manual and it keeps up with the GT4 and some of the GT3 guys on track. Seriously a great car with a lot of aftermarket support.

I agree about the Porsche Rolex Ferrari games. No thanks. I'll stick with my '82 911.

[eflight]

Porsche never really was a company that actually cared about sports car enthusiasts. No different than any other car company.

They are simply a company that sold cars. They made different cars depending on what the folks in the marketing department told them would make a profit. They started selling expensive sedans and SUVs to make a profit when sports car sales were down.

To look back fondly and believe that Porsche cared about average middle class enthusiasts being able to buy their cars is naïve.


What's sad is the path they have taken, along with pretty much every car brand, that you need the dealers computer to fix your car. Between the door handle linkage on my 997 constantly breaking and the need for the dealer to reset the oil change light I sold my 997 and wrote off any modern Porsche as the Porsche tax wasn't worth the return.

My 84 is the last Porsche I will own.

[KNS]

Originally Posted by Hi_Fi_Guy

I could write a book about my feelings on this subject but I’ll say the saddest part is Porsche is no longer an aspirational brand. The 30-something’s in my office who are car enthusiasts and all making solid upper middle class salaries now see a Porsche 911 as completely out of reach. These are people who are passionate about performance cars which BMW and Mercedes-Benz will happily sell them when Porsche will not.

The irony is Porsche is very concerned about the aging demographic of their buyers. They want them to be 30-somethings but few in their 30s would be able to afford a new Porsche unless it's a perhaps a Macan. They need an entry level car to bring young buyers in. If I was "allowed" to purchase a bare bones, minimal spec new 911 I could, I have the means. But I'm not interested in the current offerings or the absurd prices for the privilege of owning a manual trans.

[faverymi]

[2jmotorsports]

Another variable here is the current mindset that a 911 is an investment that cant ever fail. I believe this causes the majority of new customers to go into a transaction thinking they will never lose, resulting in everyone jumping as high as Porsche (or any auction site) will ask them to jump. The guys on the Podcast "Spike's Car Radio" literally joke about this all the time every time they go in on a new 911 purchase.

[aschen]

You can pick and choose inflation models and car models, but everytime I mess with the data. In aggregate porsches don't seem to be getting more expensive at a rate out of line with other cars. It kind of suprises me but if you look at the numbers with a bit of care, normalized by changes in price of other cars more than CPI porsche isnt much more egregious than other companies.

The modern tactics suck. Its mostly the consumers fault though. If you have people lining up begging to pay 15,000 to paint their car a slightly different color of grey, no rational business would refuse.

I wish they would do a lot of things different, and I think they will with changing markets, but they sure had a good run (from a buisness perspective) of milking thier customers.

[john70t]

https://allamerican.org/investigation/porsche/
Where is Porsche Made?

An early project commissioned by the German government was to create an everyday car for the everyday person.

[rcooled]

Originally Posted by plexiform

It really does feel like Porsche has forgotten about their biggest fans.

Originally Posted by eflight

Porsche never really was a company that actually cared about sports car enthusiasts. No different than any other car company.
They are simply a company that sold cars. They made different cars depending on what the folks in the marketing department told them would make a profit. They started selling expensive sedans and SUVs to make a profit when sports car sales were down.

To look back fondly and believe that Porsche cared about average middle class enthusiasts being able to buy their cars is naïve.

Porsche is simply following the business model adopted by the other exclusive high-end car makers...selling fewer cars at high prices is ultimately more profitable than having to shift more cars at a lower price point.

Their newest target customer is one for whom price is no barrier to ownership...they want a particular vehicle and are willing & able to pay whatever it takes to get it. Still seems to be plenty of these folks around to keep makers like Ferrari, Lamborghini, Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Pagani, Bugatti, Koenigsegg, and now Porsche, all afloat...at least for now.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by rcooled

Porsche is simply following the business model adopted by the other exclusive high-end car makers...selling fewer cars at high prices is ultimately more profitable than having to shift more cars at a lower price point.

Their newest target customer is one for whom price is no barrier to ownership...they want a particular vehicle and are willing & able to pay whatever it takes to get it. Still seems to be plenty of these folks around to keep makers like Ferrari, Lamborghini, Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Pagani, Bugatti, Koenigsegg, and now Porsche, all afloat...at least for now.

100% correct.. hence the schadenfreude when it's starting to look bad.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by rcooled

Porsche is simply following the business model adopted by the other exclusive high-end car makers...selling fewer cars at high prices is ultimately more profitable than having to shift more cars at a lower price point.

Same for housing and why there is a shortage in the country.

It's only going to get worse across every major category.

[Bill Douglas]

If Porsche would do a run of Carrera 3.2 CS cars I'll buy one. That's my contribution to helping out the company's finances.

[sc_rufctr]

IMO it's really simple. Cheap cars from China has stuffed the industry.

It wont be long before most cars are made in China.

[Billiam 911 2.8]

All things must pass and it was a good run. I will enjoy my old 1970 and am looking for the right 996.2 GT3 which is now 21 year old. Hope the parts remain available while I am alive.

[Por_sha911]

Porsche has become the Kardashian of sports cars.
-Over priced
-Fake boobs: (PDK, EV, (seems like)18" screen in the dash, not serviceable without have a degree in computers and specialized software, not dependable) ALL in the name of being a hot car to be desired.
-Not within reach by the average Joe
-Worst of all: PROUD of what they have become.

I have zero connection emotionally, loyalty, or engineering to what they have become.

Maybe someone like Kia will buy them and make them something to be desired again.

[911boost]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

You're not wrong on inflation, but I think there are other factors at play.. Salaries have completely disconnected from inflation in the last 10 years for one, post covid car prices have skyrocketed, and also the used prices have gone berserk... if I take the price of my first 911 (SC) in the mid to late 90s in today's money, it is 1/2 of what the market is now for a used 911 of any ilk (not the same car, but apples to apples on a used car).
Also back then the dealers were not playing games. I recall buying a 986 new (my first new one) at about 1/2 of what one is today and that does not track with inflation either. I had a shot at a friend's GT3 (used) for $70K 10y ago, comparatively today's GT cars are not depreciating, AT ALL - in some cases you pay more than new MSRP. And back then the dealers did not play the allocation games. So yeah, I hear you in theory - and when I say "for the rest of us" I do not mean it was their brand positioning, but it was how they were to ME - cars I could afford used and possibly new eventually... Can't fault the inflation reasoning to a degree, but I am convinced they moved upmarket ferrari style(covid made that happen IMO when they saw they sold all their GT allocations despite dealers marking up like madmen). In simple ME terms, I still have a decent job but from 1990-2010 I *could* play with used/cpo/occasionally new porsches. Now there is no way I could justify it (even if I could), on a similar "old car age sliding scale, vs then", so something changed.. from other posts I see I am not alone thinking something took a turn.. (still messed up and that was for OT)

In a previous job, I was like you and had the $ to look at newer 911's. I was completely turned off by the PDK only 911 Turbo (back in 2018 was when I was looking). I had a 996TT at the time that was a great GT car, but I missed the responsiveness of the NA motor. I wanted a manual car though, so that limited the type of 911 I could buy new-erish.

I did however jump into the GT world at that point, and paid the sticker price from 2010 for my GT3RS. I traded my 996TT and decided why not, you only live once.

Fast forward a few years, and that GT3RS has appreciated well enough that I could pick up most of the new 911 models for sale (minus maybe a new GT2RS) but they are bloated looking and like has been mentioned, have lost their way. Sure it is faster, but at what cost? Yeah you can get a touring, or some stupid low production model like the ST to get the manual. But my days of spending $ like that are long gone.

I also agree that the newer GT cars are used for Instagram etc., but I know some folks who drive the crap out of them. So there are some enthusiasts around.

So ultimately I am saddened by the direction the company has gone. I think though I am more disappointed by the fact that I cannot buy a 964 or G body for a decent price anymore.

Bill