war with iran averted!

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Hugh R
Foreign aid for example. We give Isreal about 4 Billion per year.

Per the Camp David Accord, we give the same amount to Egypt too.

Although loans might not be included.

Isreal has never defaulted on a loan, and wev'e loaned them a lot.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by RoninLB
When Turkey was policing the whole area during the Ottoman Empire days they did an effective job.

Throughout the mid-east, in all the coffee houses the Arabs still love to hate the muderous Turks.............such is the legacy of a mass murder society. I would post a mountain of skulls (Turk scare tactic to wipe out a village - decendants of Attila the Hun, king of the Mongols), but Z-man would edit it I'm sure.

Throughout the mid-east, in all the coffee houses the Arabs still love to hate the muderous Crusaders.............such is the legacy of a mass murder society.

History is not much part of American life/values..............other parts of the world make it part of their everyday life. Something we should try to remember when dealing with them.

[Overpaid Slacker]

what we are in the midst of now over there is working?

So, k911, you're stipulating that "negotiation" as a tactic hasn't worked; thoroughly failing to provide any response at all to the question, and instead trying to deflect the ultimate point of the question with some puerile .... "comment" is even too strong a word.

Though I'll answer yours -- what are we in the midst of now over there that is working? Well, October 9, 2004 was a banner day "over there" that NObody who (i) claimed to be an expert or (ii) believed force always fails or negotiation is The Way believed would happen. And yet, when it did, it was "reported" on page A39 of the NYT, A8 of the LAT, A24 of WaPo (page numbers are approximate).

Do you have any idea what happened "over there" on October 9, 2004? No Googling. Hint-- there's a similarly seminal event scheduled for somewhere "over there" on January 30, 2005.

What we're doing in Iraq is working -- Hussein is removed, Iraq is no longer a material threat, 90% of Iraq is peaceful and going about its business (tho' if your sole sources of news are the ABCCBSNBCCNNNPR cabal, you can't be blamed for your ignorance on this point, b/c nobody you'd trust would've told you) and elections are -- still -- scheduled for January 30, 2005.

If it wasn't working, Iran and the rest of the shytbags wouldn't be scared and wouldn't be pouring manpower and materiel into Iraq to disrupt democracy. When elections are held in Iraq and a new, secular, authority is in power by the will of the people, Iran will be bracketed by THREE countries which the US has democratized and help stabilized: Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

But somehow there's just GOT to be a way to characterize that as failure!!! There's GOT to.

Blaming America First, Last and Always requires that there be failure, even if you have to manufacture it, or ignore stunning, world-changing successes and nit pick -- "you didn't change the world fast enough, or perfectly enough or without hurting anyone -- or anyone's feelings.

AFAIC, so far, so pretty damned good ... b/c we put the jaw-jaw bullshyt aside and acted. Not perfectly, but it's never perfect. You want perfection, start with yourself. We'll wait to hear from you when you get there, but won't hold our breath.

JP

[juanbenae]

what are we in the midst of over there? A war that is costing us billions, 80 more billion if W gets his way. could we have not improved things in this country with a portion of that money? schools, infrastucture, poilce and fire dept., which locally are cutting staff and closing fire stations.

an election that will be a sham, if it even goes down. even if it goes down its an election that the people of iraq see an a way to install a puppet that W and his boys pull the strings on. the canidates are not even revealing they are running because the "10%" of the country that is unstable will bomb them, just as they have killed the local police, political figures on a daily basis since they aligned with us.

american GI's getting killed everyday. need i say more?

you note my news sources, and wonder why i am sooo uninformed. from my couch i see your information as unbias, and slanted. fox news viewer by any chance? its all depends on what side you stand and whats important to you.

i would prefer that 80 billion be used stateside, to fix the potholes on the freeway, keep the firefighter that may put my house fire out employed, or any number of social problems that need attention.

i am far from perfect, hell look at my spelling and lack of writing ability. as i have said i am lucky to remain clothed with a roof over my head. regarding iran? i just don't want another four years of war with another country in the middle east. do you not agree that there are more of them willing to die to take even a couple of us americans down with them then there was 3 years ago? thats what scares me the most. there is a whole generation of terrorist in waiting over there. and some will make it to our shores, and others are already here..

[Overpaid Slacker]

I simply don't share your view of money spent over there -- and your ramblings still do not get to whether anything we're doing or have done is "working" over there. MUCH less does it put forth any apology for a position that negotiation can/would/will -- or HAS EVER worked. But, talk is cheap, which is what appears to be most important to you.

Heck, let's kill NASA -- it costs billions; stop funding for the NEA (I'm for that one, actually); stop farm subsidies which actually hurt farmers (like Jefford's NE Dairy Compact); cut off all foreign aid; wrap up the UN (I'm really for ditching that bloated, corrupt, and very expensive, corpse of internationalism). Heck, let's de-militarize entirely. Weapons systems cost money, and lots of it. Then we'd HAVE to negotiate every situation b/c that'd be our ONLY option... kinda like Canada and Europe.

So when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. As long as that's a soft, fuzzy, internationalist (and cheap) hammer, who cares? Tra-la-la. La-la.

I have trouble following your 2nd para, but if you're convinced, ex ante that the elections, whatever the result, must by definition be a sham, please ... save the electrons. You're about conservation of resources. Stop wasting them with such transparent "Bush has GOT to be wrong, even before it's happened, it's a failure, it's WRONG. WAaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh" posts.

If our efforts to seed democracy, liberty and freedom "over there" just have to be failures b/c you disagree with why we've done them or just plain hate W, you don't really add much to a conversation about any of this.

GIs get killed in war -- you can't get over it. Most of us can accept that and move on. Which is not to say we like it, but we don't need to dwell on it, much less throw it out as an adolescent "end-all discussion" petulant moral trump card. This is why we have GIs -- an all volunteer force of them -- to exert the will of the US Government.

Yes, I watch Fox News, but I don't watch it much; I don't think TV is a particularly efficient medium for information. However, I am capable of separating advocacy journalism and editorializing from the "news." Which is to say I do not confuse Bill O'Reilly et. al. as "news"; a distinction many who love to pillory Fox seem genetically incapable of making.

It doesn't all "depend on what side you stand" for Chrissake! Who stole your moral compass and set you adrift in this unbounded ocean of relativism? There are massive successes in Iraq, and peace and returning prosperity throughout most of it. That you're ignorant of it is your own fault -- or choice. And such a choice is a moral one (perhaps calculated for petty political gain) that I don't excuse with some relativist pablum.

It's fine that you prefer to spend $80 billion at home; like Mondale, who wanted to scrap the Space Program b/c there was a hungry child out there. There are other things I could think to spend $80 billion on as well (how much would it cost just to pave over France?).

Coupla things -- $80 billion is a rounding error in our economy, and if we weren't going to be investing that money abroad in an unprecedented, well-intentioned attempt to liberate millions and change the world, then I'd rather it wasn't taken from us by our government in the first place.

But it's not like $80 billion is being set on fire, either. It's "spent" to "buy" resources and services, and the recipients of those payments will in turn spend that money, keeping others employed and paying taxes thereon.
Finally, the $80 billion comes out of federal coffers; federal aid aside (that distills down to next-to-nothing at the "street" level) your state and municipal governments are responsible for your streets and firefighters -- so lobby them to raise your taxes.

If you want these things, pay for them. But don't continue to use them as feeble spectres for what we "should" be doing. At least not here. Hmm.. a coupla extra potholes that the LOCALS should pay to fix vs. liberation of 26 million people, a strong chance for democracy and liberty for them, and helping to make the US and the world a safer place.

Who is it that's selfish here?

JP

[304065]

Heh heh . . . "new, secular, authority" . . . you tryin' to say Novus Ordo Seclorum?"

$80 billion? That's less than a third of the equity market capitalization of Microsoft. A couple of hedge funds could come up with that, no problem.

But in all seriousness, I have been lately using, and giving you full credit for, your prior piece on "it's a luxury to fight the enemy on their own soil rather than our own." Tends to wilt the isolationists.

[Overpaid Slacker]

John -
As always, thank you for your careful attention to what I write, and more specifically the words I use.

To be honest, I didn't mean to say Novus ... to be even more honest, it hadn't even occurred to me to make that connection. Dammit!

I'd read reports today that the Shiite factions likeliest to win the elections have come out and said that they will put secular Iraqis in the seats of power -- and NOT Imams, Ayatollahs or other "Turbans" -- their word, not mine. I think that's an amazing stipulation on their part, and one Shiite rep said that on a recent visit to Tehran, Iranians (quietly but unanimously) said it was the right approach, as the holy men tend to corruption in positions of secular power!

"The Hell you say, Ahmed?!?"

JP

[tabs]

Pakistan is a Democracy???....what planet are you from OP? Musaref took power during a coup....I guess you might say thats a Pakistani election of sorts....

Sodam was a guy who had to go...NO doubt, but our highly vaunted civilian leadership in the Pentagon thought they could do it on the cheap....with 150,000 troops...While the military leadership KNEW that was a woefully inadequate number to do the job right. As a consequence our highly vaunted civilian leadership in the Pentagon have had ***** rubbed in their faces yet they still refuse to acknowledge their mistakes...this does tend to present a problem in that their vericity and judgement is now suspect if not downright discredited....So U boyz can argue about elections and 80 Billion all U like but it don't mean squat when the news procl;aims ANOTHER American is pleading that his head doesn't come off on TV...I do wonder if he thinks US policy is working in Irwreck. and if the 80 BIllion was well spent on getting Iwreck on the Democratic path?

[tabs]

Freedom and Democracy what a joke....I guess if that means a Walmart on every corner..then I agree with Bush....but to think that you can change the world into the American model of Democracy is quiet simply ludicrous...Why not just say we are on a mission from Gawd....and are out to convert the heatens into civilized eg Democratic people...instead of the barbarians they really are.

[Overpaid Slacker]

tabs -- that's why I hedged with three countries the US "democratized and help stabilized".

But it's strange -- first you scoff at the notion that Pakistan is a democracy ... as though in order to be a "legitimate" democracy it has to be up to some American standard. THEN you go on to say that expecting everyone to become the American standard is a joke...

Hmmm... Bipolar day today, amigo?

I certainly do not believe that every nation can (much less should) be made into an "American" democracy. However, I also believe that's not our aim.

Whatever you need to call our efforts in the Middle East (and why you need to call it anything is a separate question) democracy of whatever flavor is a means to an end -- stability and safety. Not all democracies prosper, but where there is opportunity and prosperity there is almost always democracy. Look at where opportunity and prosperity are lacking -- that's where you've got the most and most severe problems (coughmiddleeastcough).

You don't need to kill every terrorist to win -- b/c you never could. You need to convince them they can't win. And there are two sides of that ledger -- first, you need to convince them that they can't beat you.
OK, you say, that leaves glorious martyrdom and dying for their cause... Second, though, is that they have opportunities other than blowing themselves up -- a possible future that's worth pursuing. So they can't beat you AND they can do much better for themselves than they could under their Thug/mullah/theocracy. It's not advanced math.

As it doesn't need to be American democracy, it doesn't need to be American-levels of opportunity and prosperity.

Heaven forfend that other countries reach American levels of opportunity and prosperity, actually -- b/c then you'd create a caste of professional self-loathers that couldn't help but blame their country for everything wrong in their lives and the world, as a convenient contrition to excuse and "elevate" themselves.... and I wouldn't wish that on any other country.

JP

EDIT -- Re: Pakistan as democracy. Sorry, it took me a minute to find this. And no, it's not "elections" such as those Hussein wherein Hussein enjoyed 100% of the popular vote...

[juanbenae]

well said tabby. i wish i had the skeels you posses with the written word, my strong point is more of the spoken type.

[Overpaid Slacker]

K911sc
I'm all full of love for tabs, but if you think that that's "well said" ... well, enough said.

And, not strangely, as I believe he shares my opinion on "diplomacy", nothing in tabs' messages spoke to the stellar successes in modern history of negotiation in resolving problems around the world. Which was the basis on which your snide ... again "comment" is too big a word... provoked today's exchange.

You're going to get back to us on that whole success of negotiations thing, tho', right?

JP

[tabs]

Semantics OP...semantics....GW's goal is an admirable one..but he does come off as a man with a mission from Gawd to go on a Crusade to spread the gospel of Freedom and Democracy...

[Overpaid Slacker]

Maybe he is on a mission from Gawd. I don't care why he's doing it; I believe he's doing a Good Thing, with good consequences both abroad and at home.

In much the same way an athiest could applaud church-sponsored charities, even though they don't believe in the Gawd that is the predicate for the church in the first place.

You wanna know what I really believe -- deep in my heart? I believe I'll go home, have three fingers of Maker's Mark and a 1 1/2 inch thick Ribeye (medium rare). That's about the depth of my convictions, but they work for me.

JP

[tabs]

Like they say beauty is skin deep but ugly is to the bone....my convictions are to the bone...

Anyway it is admirable that Bush recognizes that the only way to win a war on Terrorism is to undercut the motivation for becoming one....that goes at odds with our previous policies of supporting regimes with less than stellar humanitarian records....We do need to open the avenue of opportuunity for the people of this region.

[juanbenae]

Originally posted by Overpaid Slacker


You wanna know what I really believe -- deep in my heart? I believe I'll go home, have three fingers of Maker's Mark and a 1 1/2 inch thick Ribeye (medium rare). That's about the depth of my convictions, but they work for me.

JP

finally something i can agree with!

we agree to disagree. i am not a very educated man, and don't get my point accross as well as you JP and i regret that. if we were to discuss this over a drink i would be on more of a level playing field. look at your avatar handle, "super smart guy" or whatever, how am i to hang with such nobility?

i admire your ability to stand up for the war, even justify it, i just think the war there has been handled poorly, and i don't want W and his boys to take on another war .

[tabs]

This is a war of a culture at odds with itself..on one hand you have tradition and religion and on the other the desire to throw off or lay down the shakles of tradition for a personal freedom...it is quiet ironic that the Jihadies in all their desire to uphold tradition and religion go against it's very tenets....the 911 Suicide bombers were all astranged from their families and hadn't talked to their fathers which goes in the very face of their tradition.

[tabs]

Negioation with the North Koreans is almost pointless as they see negioation as a means of buying time, and will do what they want to regardless of what they agree to do....

The Iranians while being ruled by a Theocracy which has some pretty specific ideas as to how things should be...don't appear to be playing with a short deck..they know that there are consequences to their actions...Negioation and pressure might have the desired effect...

There are those in the Bush administartion who believe that allowing the Israelies or our use of force against specific targets in Iran will cause the people of Iran to rise up and over throw the theocracy..this is delusional thinking for it neglects to take into account Iranian NATIONALISM.(secularism)...which is the very force we are trying to promote vs. Theocracy... The likely outcome is that the Iranians will rally around the flag...

The rise of Iranian Theocracy was a reflecttion of the Iranians desire to control their own destiny and rid themselves of American influence over there futures...Much like Castro turned to Communism to rid Cuba of American infuence in Cuba (in thisw case it was the corruption of organized crime and the criminals use of Cuba as a base of operations).

While the USA seems to have little fear of China, Indias, Israels, and even Pakistani ownership of Nuclear weapons we have a fear of Iranian ownership...we fear that as an instrument of Theocratic foreign policy they will use those weapons in an indiscriminate fashion. However the aquistiion of Nuclear weapons has made even the most irresponisble of regimes (N Korea) play within a semblence of the rules....it seems no one who has ownership of them can escape the responsibility moral and otherwise of that ownership. Yet the real fear is that an amorphise organization which is not responsible.. like Al Queda would not hesitate to use them to further their agenda..

[Overpaid Slacker]

Democracy is the Key. Don't take my word for it, take Zarqawi's:

We have declared a fierce war on this evil principle of democracy and those who follow this wrong ideology. Democracy is also based on the right to choose your religion [... and that is]against the rule of God."

NOTE -- Zarqawi is al-Qaeda's top shytbag in Iraq, appointed by OBL himself, and notice he's not saying this is a fight to the death against "imperialism" or "capitalism" or "occupation" or any other bullshyt red herring our left so easily falls for. He's shown his hand, kids! It is Democracy that they fear -- why? Because it can't be turned to their benefit like greed, corruption and unanswerability can -- they know that popular sentiment is against them and they can only rule by oppression, by stifling opportunity and smothering liberty.

OBL said in December "Anyone who participates in these elections . has committed apostasy against Allah."

He also said that Iraqi forces who aid the upcoming elections "are apostates who should not be prayed over upon their deaths. They cannot inherit, and they must not be inherited from [after their deaths]. Their wives are divorced from them, and they must not be buried in Muslim cemeteries."

Seems to be about Democracy. Regardless of the scoffing at such notions on this side of history -- you know, the "enlightened" side of history we're supposed to share.

As fellow travellers in the power-by-oppression racket, the Mullahs in Iran's Theocracy have to be soiling their dresses right now. THAT kind of pressure will work if anything short of military intervention will; if and to the extent negotiation gets any traction at all with Iran it's b/c of that kind of pressure -- which is the direct, immediate and irrefutable result of the exertion of will through military power and our continued military presence.

The current ruling regimes in Cuba and Iran (and others) and those sympathetic to such regimes love to speak in terms of the poor, oppressed masses ousting American influence. No. Don't buy that, even with a certificate of authenticity from Noam Chomsky himself. The "uprising" forces in those countries had one agenda -- a raw, naked power grab. If they needed a demon to blame in order to justify their actions, hey the US is the number one all-time justification for evil and oppression by others.

I'll readily stipulate that there was corruption at the top in Iran and Cuba, but to lay that at America's doorstep, as though America created corruption, is intellectually lazy; which is why it has such appeal to a certain demographic, probably. But what has throwing off the shackles of Evil American influence led to: the antithesis of democracy, oppression, capricious "justice" by an unanswerable ruling class, poverty (relatively speaking in Iran's case, but only b/c of oil), constantly simmering rebellion, and a self-perpetuating thugocratic governance. What a bargain. In retrospect, reforming the system they had probably seems like a better idea to 95% of Iranians and Cubans.

"Whew!!! Glad America is gone and we can live in our Islamic/Socialist Paradise!!!!" -- How many people in Iran or Cuba outside the ruling class do you believe ever said those words?

k911 -- olive branch accepted, and I agree that things could have been handled better; my point is that they always can be handled better. I'd rather we not have to kickdown Iran's door and drain that swamp too ... but if we do, I'll support that cause. Even if it is swaddled in "we're only doing this b/c W's on a Mission from Gawd" crap from our anti-religion, W-hating mass media sources.

JP

[juanbenae]

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050124fa_fact,

here is some intrested reading, mr hersh was a guest last night on the daily show and had some very interesting things to say. seems he is convinced we will be in iran by this summer. the pentagon folks expect the people to greet us with flowers in the streets, and back our over throw of the goverment in place. sound familiar?