taken by contractor

[island_dude]

My wife and I decided to rip up our carpeting and lay down new hardwood floors. We got a number of quotes over the whole range, and settled on a company that was a little lower than the middle. This guy came highly recommended by a friend. I never met the guy, but my wife liked him and based on what seemed like a reasonable quote and a good recommendation we went forward. We started to sort out the details: I would be resposible for obtaining the materials (this seemed a little strange actually), he would move the large items as necessary, and it would take between 3-4 days to lay about 1050 sq feet of flooring.

The crew showed up on a monday around 9:00 (minus the main guy) and started tearing out the old flooring. In the process some areas were uncovered that were damaged by cat urine. They kicked off a small investigation as to what to do. They cut out part of the subfloor and messed around for a bit. They left at about 4:00 having just barely gotten rid of the old materials (which we dumped on the lawn).

They came back at 9:00 the next day and started laying the flooring. They took a two hour lunch and left at 3:30. At the end of the week (before a long weekend), they managed to complete only part of one room. They left the place a mess: sawdust everywhere and debris left all over. They guys were like bulls, the damaged the walls as they moved around and were anything but careful.

Long long story short: At the end of the week my wife asked the owner why its was taking so long. He starts yelling at her about all kinds of stuff --- like it is her fault that they can't get the job done. We nearly fired the guy then and there (and should have as it turns out). I talk to him to smooth things out and get a song and dance about being short handed, not making any money on the job etc.

By the end of the second week most of the flooring is down but there are a lot of things not done or not doe right. The place is a total mess. meanwhile the guy claims that it took 17 hours to do the sub-floor work (at $60/hr).

I was away on travel when he shows up on the following monday. They worked about three hours and as the guy is leaving he tells my wife (who he knows is alone and I am away) that she has to move the furniture around. She tells him to get out and never come back.

Now the scary part. We had another crew come do the upstairs and see if they could fix the mess downstairs. It takes them two days to do a job of roughly the same size. Its perfect. In the process they mention a few troubleing aspects of the other contractor's job. He layed some of the flooring along the joists instead of across them. They didn't mark the joists so most of the wood is just nailed into the sub floor. So, not only did they take forever, damage the house, etc., they did a crappy job that I will have to redo down the road.

The guy mean while feels that I owe him another $600 on top of the amount that remained. This means that the $4700 quote became a $6300 substandard job. With me having to put up with a lot of crap. The guy wants the a total of $2300 and is threatning to put a lein on the house.

I have a number of pictures (I'd post them, but they are way too large) of the damage. This guy is't going to see a dime from me, but its going to be a painful process.

[schamp]

I would take plenty of pictures and get written statements from the people who fixed the mess. I would get an attorney and consider sueing the guy for having to get it done right. Once he gets a letter from your lawyer or get served to show up in court he most likely will run and hide or try and make it right. Don't let this guy run over you. Thats what I would do. YMMV Spencer

[legion]

Watch out for mechanic's leans. Some contractors file them against everyone they do work for, regardless of whether they were paid or not.

[Dottore]

What Schamp said. I had a similar issue with a contractor here. Take lots of pictures and get lots of statements. These will tip the balance in your favour when push comes to shove.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Sorry to hear about your problems. I've said it before and I'll say it again - GET A WRITTEN CONTRACT. You absolutely should have done this or hired a residential construction management firm to do it for you. It is standard verbage in construction contracts that the scope of work, schedule and contractor's responsibilities are clearly spelled out and it is a LOT harder for them to jack you around once that's in place.

"Industry standard" is that the contractor is typically responsible for anything they damage and for leaving the site reasonably clean at the end of each day's work. They are normally also responsible for disposal/hauling of construction debris. You're opening yourself up to liability by just having it sitting on your lawn - if some kid gets a nail through the foot and the contractor is able to successfully argue that "hey, the owner said he'd take care of it", guess what? You get the bill.

The instant a contractor gives you that age-old line about "I'm not making any money off this job", it's time to throw their ass off the job site. I'm not kidding. They bid it, it's their problem and frankly I don't want anyone there that doesn't want to be there - it creates a dangerous corrosive atmosphere and I guarantee they'll be fishing for big change orders. I'm 100% dead serious here - we've thrown COMMERCIAL subcontractors off jobs on multi-million dollar projects for exactly this.

Good luck with the fight, but I hope you've learned a lesson from this. WRITTEN CONTRACT, architect-prepared stamped construction documents or C.M. firm in the future people. I don't know what it is with residential owners where they get so damn cheap about everything. Common sense - if people do it on large commercial jobs, there's probably a reason for it. It makes sense on a small residential job too - and it's not nearly as expensive as you might think. For this, you probably could have hired a residential C.M. outfit to handle all the details for you for under $1,000.

I suspect without a contract you're screwed, but good luck fighting the fight anyway.

[slow&rusty]

How much sq.ft of hardwood did they actually install?

[island_dude]

A couple of answers. We did have a written contract. It did not specify the duration however. The contract was required to remove and dispose of all waste materials (I paid for this also) this was spelled out in the contract.

They installed all of the flooring they were suposed to at the end of the job (~1050sq feet). It was not done correctly. I kinew there were problems, but I did not realize the extent of the problems.

We have a lot of pictures documenting the extent of the damage done to the house. I think I am in good shape for any real show down. Still, it is a pain in the butt.

[competentone]

Originally posted by island_dude
The guy wants the a total of $2300 and is threatning to put a lein on the house.

Check the state's records and see if this guy is actually a licensed contractor. If he's not licensed, he will probably have difficulty putting a lien on the house. If he is licensed, there should be a system of penalties for improper use of liens and a potential place where you can make a complaint.

If he's not licensed, you have some good ammo to keep him from bothering you more.

Also, you said he came "highly recommended" by a friend; how well does this friend know him? Have you explained the problems you've had to this friend?

[schamp]

I would go on the offensive. Let him find out that you are not kidding around and don't take threats lightly. I would talk to the meanest son of a ***** lawyer in town tomorrow morning and turn him loose. Sure it will cost you some money but still better than a lien on you home and the mess that entails. Next time he calls and wants something tell him no and ask him if he has heard from your attorney yet. He most likely cannot afford an attorney in which case you might be able to get some money back or at least a release, job completed, paid in full, etc. Let us know how it goes. Spencer
Don't forget to get either recorded statements or written statement from the people who said the work was bad. This is key.

[ruf-porsche]

When you do settle up with this contractor, make sure you get a signed waiver of Lien.

[Bill Douglas]

Don't pay him anything and settle it in the small claims court. Keep a very accurate time and date of what happened and what was said in your diary - keep all documents and be highly organised for the hearing. And again, don't pay him anything as you won't get the money back off him if the court decides in your favor.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Okay that changes things - good job on getting a written contract. Did you spell out the terms of payment schedule? It's not uncommon to have 25% up front, 25% at 50% completion and the balance upon satisfactory completion. If the work is really shoddy and you can document it, you could successfully withhold the final payment pending resolution of outstanding/unsatisfactory items.

You may want to check with the manufacturer of the flooring you used (Pergo?, who was it?) and see if you can get a copy of their standard specifications and/or manufacturer's installation instructions. If the contractor clearly didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions, you probably have a very good case to show they didn't follow accepted industry standards of care and prove sub-standard work. Just be thankful that it's flooring and not a life-safety item. You wouldn't believe the stuff some of these guys try to skimp on. . . Anyway I digress - try to get the manufacturer's data. In the future, stipulate in the contract that all work "shall be performed in full accordance with accepted industry standards, manufacturer's specifications and installation instructions and applicable regulations or ordinances" (or words to that effect). There's a freebie for ya.

If the contractor included removal of waste debris as part of his bid and didn't, you should be entitled to AT LEAST a credit for that. You're fine there.

Litigation sucks, but it sounds like you might have to drag this one through the courts in order to get resolution. I'd talk to an attorney and as has been stated, make sure there aren't any liens placed on your property in the meantime (or if there are, find out all the details and be prepared for a long fight). Document everything, make a timeline/chronological history of all communications, payments, activity, etc.

If he is a licensed contractor, you can file a grievance with the state regulatory board. The downside is that even if he loses this and loses big, he'll simply be back in business under a different name two weeks later. That probably won't happen on a job of this scope (pretty small), but it's the oldest trick in the book and a lot of the sleazier contractors keep it in their back pocket as "justification" to engage in really distasteful practices.

Best of luck with this - keep us all posted on how it turns out - be curious to hear.

[john70t]

I agree with POPs advice.
Another option is getting another contractor to look at the job to determine if it was done correctly, and if not, give you a written estimate on a total remedy (tearing out floor, disposal, and re-doing the job again correctly).
He can lose and regain his license, but if the buisness is not held in a corporate filing, his personal assets could possibly be held liable(?).

I remember my fathers 3 carpenters framed a 2400sq ft house in 4 days to the roof. Good luck.

[911pcars]

"He layed some of the flooring along the joists instead of across them. They didn't mark the joists so most of the wood is just nailed into the sub floor."

Sorry to hear about your contractor. I think most of us have stories to tell about our own experiences.

I have a question about the orientation of the flooring. The 2nd contractor said the floor wasn't laid perpendicular to the floor joists. Is this necessary if you have a subfloor? If the subfloor is nailed correctly to the joists, I don't think ithe direction of the planks would matter. For example, if joists run parallel with a hallway, do the planks have to run perpendicular? Can flooring guys here confirm this?

I hope this works out for you.

Sherwood

[Jims5543]

3 of us laid 1200 SF of 3/4 hardwood in my house in NC over a long weekend. My guess is we did it in less than 40 hours, this included tearing out the carpet, prepping the floor and cutting all the door jambs and there were a lot of them, this was a complicated lay, lots and lots of doorways.

We drank a lot of Redbull / Vodkas in the process. We even endured sitting down and drinking beers with Procon one night.

[competentone]

Originally posted by Jim Cesiro
3 of us laid 1200 SF of 3/4 hardwood in my house in NC over a long weekend.

Hope that's not asbestos backed vinyl flooring? What year was the house built?

[VaSteve]

Island... I'm sure it's of little consolation, but there are a lot of "woodchucks" up here in NoVa. They come up from the Luray Valley area and do work since they can get paid pretty well compared to down there. When a project goes bad, they slink back down to the Valley till it cools off for a while. Look to the board of licensing for similar complaints. I, of course, found all this out the hard way.... Some woodchucks subcontracted some other shady dudes while we went to NC to watch cockfighting. This was on an attic remodling. I never felt comfortable sleeping under there afterwards...

[notfarnow]

Originally posted by 911pcars


I have a question about the orientation of the flooring. The 2nd contractor said the floor wasn't laid perpendicular to the floor joists. Is this necessary if you have a subfloor? If the subfloor is nailed correctly to the joists, I don't think ithe direction of the planks would matter. For example, if joists run parallel with a hallway, do the planks have to run perpendicular? Can flooring guys here confirm this?

Sherwood

I was surprised to read that too. My understanding was that it is preferable, but not necessary, to run perpendicular to the joists. When I laid my kitchen floors a month ago, they ran parallel to the joists, but I have a very solid subfloor (1" plywood over 3/4" spruce)

[Jims5543]

Originally posted by competentone
Hope that's not asbestos backed vinyl flooring? What year was the house built?

Nope, but it was a heartbreaking discovery. It is luon that was not only nailed down but glued down as well, it took 1.5 hours to get a 2x4 square of it up off the sub floor.

We then checked the kitchen and bathrooms and it appears the luon has been glued down in those rooms as well. That kind of killed my plans to lay slate tile in those rooms. Its looking more like more vinyl flooring over the existing now.

[notfarnow]

Jim, those floors look awesome! How are they fastened? Looks like nail holes on the faces? I laid 9" hardood planks in my kitchen & dining room... had to plug 826 screw holes!