165 Mph 73 2.4s ???

[A Quiet Boom]

Oh and one more thing. When I first got on this board I recall being told my 911 gearbox wouldn't hold up to a 3.0, the internet experts where wrong, the second gear synchro is a bad (or good) as it's ever been and I beat the heck out of that tranny. I bought a short case G50 in anticipation that I'd soon need it but never have. I also bought two spare 911 trannies, one for parts and one to rebuild for the inevitable failure I was about to realize. That was several years back, I still haven't rebuilt the spare tranny and I still haven't exploded the one in the car and it's managed to stay alive under the "careful" driving of a former drag racer with 245/40/17 Yokohama AVS Sports in back. Well this incredibly fragile tranny that was going to explode if I did anything other than drive like grandma sure doesn't mind painting concrete black! Heck this past summer with well worn tires and needing an excuse to finally pull the motor for use in the '73 I beat the living snot out of it, no explosion? Maybe, just maybe the "experts" where wrong?

[sithot]

I still say BS: I give you the specs of the Carrera 3.0 RS. Make note of the aerodynamics.

http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=990&Porsche

Also and FWIW: you might be riding a grenade. This is old drag racing formula

Piston speed = STROKE times RPM divided by 6.

2.77 X 8500/6 = 3924 fpm

The following maximum piston speeds are from the book, Performance Tuning in Theory and Practice, by A.G.Bell.

Stock Motor 3,500 fpm
(cast crank, stock rods and cast piston)

Heavy Duty Motor 4,000 fpm
(forged crank, peened rods w/ good bolts, forged piston)

Drag Racing Motor 5,000 fpm
(forged crank, alum rods, lighweight pistons, etc.)

You got any of this other stuff beside the crank?

Ti rods? Nah. Carillos or Pauter? Nah.

Tom

[A Quiet Boom]

Tom,

So the 2.4S with it's forged pistons and forged and nitrided rods falls into the heavy duty engine category. Add to that an excellent oiling system, 8 main bearings (rigidity) and the natural balance of a flat six, where's the problem. My guess? The bottom end is likely good enough for 8500 without being touched. It's also very easy and very common to convert a 2.4 to a 2.7 as they share the same crankshaft. The 2.8RSR has the same stroke and likely the same crank, although perhaps race prepped.

The missing part of this equation is the valve train and port sizing. I don't think it's unrealistic for this motor to have ported stock heads and a hot cam. Also the 3.0 Carrera RS has only 8.5:1 compression and max power at 6200, not high enough to make power where needed to achieve 165, it does have a top speed of 152 listed though. At 226HP it doesn't make much more than a carbed 3.0SC suggesting small ports in the heads (the peak HP RPM also suggests this)

The 2.8RSR as I stated earlier made max power (308) at 8000rpm, the redline has to be higher than that to be practical as a track car otherwise you'd be shifting right at the peak with no headroom to wind out a gear a little further. The more I investigate this the more plausible it becomes. (and the more I want similar parts on my motor)

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by execmalibu .
I dont know you?

Why would I even consider waisting me time to dig the car out to give free rides? I would have to move a Bimota Tesi and a Triumph to get the car out..

I can't recall when I last read a post from a guy with a bigger ego. You DO love yourself more than life, don't you??

Name dropping, race references, comments about your old Cobra, and your Merc, how they pay you the 'big money' to drive, and on and on and on....

yechhh.......

(Oh...and by the way "waist" is the part above your hips..."waste" is what you meant to say.)

[charleskieffner]

Originally posted by daepp
Man, all I asked is "Is this possible?" I never thought the question would spawn(sp.?) 12 pages!!!

I spent a lot of time taking pictures at Crytal Cove and posting the to OT, only to end up with a few meager postings. Who woulda thought!

youve created a meglomaniac of monsterous proportions and on top of that..............theres a 911 TARGA out their lurking waiting for its next victim. ALL 930 TURBO OWNERS BE ON THE ALERT FOR A DEADLY NEW STRAIN OF OLD TARGAS THAT WILL SNEAK UP ON YOU AND WHUUP YOUR A$$!

there is no known cure! and the driver/owner/seller could quite possibly be none other than....................TOM CRUISES STAND-IN OR KIM ILL JONG(n.korea) aka malibu boy! consider him armed half cocked and dangerous to all mankind!

today i'll have to move the PILATUS and the CITATION and GRUMMAN to get to my 87 cab 3.2 that does 300MPH!

what a crock of POO! good luck selling the MYSTERY WUNDERCAR! about the only buyer i can think of is.................HELEN KELLER!

[goldgunner]

Originally posted by charleskieffner
what a crock of POO!

Good morning Chuck~!

With best intentions: you seem to often be in the same bombastic league with malibu exec...and Arizona is not THAT far from lala land...what say you swing over there with a couple c-notes and take a ride and just for fun check it out revs and all?

In addition to calling what might be a bluff (or not), you might make a friend who might not be so different in interests from yourself. Only one way to find out - eh?

[jacko241]

Top speed is mainly limited by aerodynamic drag. Weight has almost nothing to do with it, other than to determine how long it takes to get there. That is why a car with 300hp may go, say, 165 mph, but with 600hp it will certainly not go 330 mph. Aerodynamic drag increases exponentially as speed increases. If that car goes 165mph, then it certainly is making north of 280hp. And if it is making that much power, it is almost certainly larger than a 2.4.

[charleskieffner]

goldgunner if i had a turbo i would be all over this. but since i live at an elevation that isnt kind to turbos in the summer. and the fact that i worked at airesearch/garrett, and have owned turbos, the only way i would own a turbo is living at elevation or in a plane. turbos like cold air not 118+degree ambients.

i only jump in these when i know facts. and the fact is ..........NOT ONE DAMN 911S -T-E-L from that era EVER beat a TURBO GOING DOWN I-10. and i was in the turbo or i was in the 911S-T-E-L or 914-6! if you noticed also malibu boy has now changed his tune............0-80MPH is now the race. not as published in his cheeezze bay ad. please read his ad again.

as far as his interests.........flying upside down in a jet right off the deck ranks up there with the "OTHER DUMB-A$$ pilots" i have known! and their dead now!

malibuboy probably doesnt have a clue what its like to be nerfed by a class 1 car in the dezert at over a 100MPH! ive raced bikes buggies trucks sports cars all my life. finished 2nd overall in state w/SCORE car. that wont even buy me a cup of coffee let alone the creamer! we like racing..........anykind of racing. and malibuboy has made the challenge and now will not come out and play.

bottom line is..........hes got too much stuff in front of the car now to get it out of garage to sell or show.

the rules have now changed......0-80

another pelican wants to go for a ride to prove 8500rpmPLUS

and malibuboy refuses.

id love a break from school. id love to go to the mojave again to witness this spectacle. i will make sure we have our wheelbarrow (w/flames on it) and plenty of beer and shovels to scrap up all the mysterywundercar parts spread across the dezert so we dont have the EPA calling it a hazardous waste site due to massive oil hemmorage on highway as the TURBO OF DOOM goes sailing by malibuboy.


the further out the date for this race, ambient dezert temps will be cooler................and the TURBO WILL LIKE THAT ALOT!

[Wil Ferch]

As a "build" to Jacko241's post above....

-drag is proportional to the SQUARE of velocity ( v*2)

- Hp necessary to overcome that drag is proportional to the CUBE of velocity ( v*3)

I've posted on this before with the same example. My '85 Carrera has 200- 207 hp stock and is geared to hit redline and top speed ( 150 mph) at the same time in 5th gear....nice touch.

So...assuming roughly equal aero ( not quite...but it serves to illustrate the math).

(165/150)* cubed x 207 hp = 1.3331 x 207 = 275 hp.

This makes sense as I previously calculated what it would take to hit 200 mph...and it matches the hp developed by Ruf CTR fairly well...for a car that did slightly better -->

(200/150) * cubed x 207 hp = 2.37 x 207hp = 490 hp.


- Wil

[jacko241]

Dead on, Wil. It is why my aerodynamically challenged super widebody RSR will only do 150 with 270 hp.

[Bill Verburg]

I thought about closing or moving this thread, may still do that but this is sort of amusing, and first I just want to throw out some facts

1973 Carrera RS has more power, better aero and a theoretical top speed of 153mph, gear limit and aero limit are very close on an RS but a targa aero package is much worse, gearing is the same as for RS

short gears wil lower the theoretical top speed

the pics on e-bay do not show a car even as low and aero efficient as my '72S targa which certainly was never able to hit 145 at any DE or 8500rpm.


stock '72S is redlined a@7200, stock rev limiter 7300, yes you can rev past that, a little

factory claims for top speed of a '72-73 S was 143mph

[Rot 911]

I couldn't even speculate on the claims made by the seller, but why should we be surprised on the $37K bids? In my opinion early 911's are still underpriced. I don't think anyone here would argue that the quality of ANY 911 is light years ahead of any car made by GM, Ford and Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth in the same time period, yet we see run of the mill restored Camaro's and 'Cuda's in the six figure range with rare Z/28's and Hemi's going for over 1 million dollars. The guys paying that kind of money are crazy. $37K for a '73S in good condition is not that crazy when a new SUV goes for at least that much and in 5 years you will be lucky to resell your SUV for half of what you paid for it. That $37K '73S will be selling for a lot more in 5 years.

[execmalibu .]

Christian,

You and I are on the same page...

[execmalibu .]

Christian,

You and I are on the same page...

It is absolutely possible that the engine a 2.4 liter...

Back when I used to race 356 and Carreras guys like Al Cadrobbi and Al Carraza could build 1,600cc Porsche engines that ran circles around the other Porsches on the track that were also 1600cc. Cadrobbi gave me a couple of hints one day at Riverside..

These guys just had a little trick or had figured out where the Porsche Factory has made a mistake. As I recall Al Cadrobbi was flown to the Porsche Factory or they came to him (dont remember) to have him teach the Factory Mechanics how to build a better 4 Cam Carrera engine.

I also know that the Porsche Factory has relied on other American racing teams for their expertise in the development of the 911 Racing engines. The engineers have learned and know what should work in theory when tested is a failure but what is considered impossible often surprized even the experts!

Plus take a look at NASCAR. They have been regulated to having exactly the same engine specs but some cars are 10MPH faster then the others.

Try getting into the engine shop of a NASCAR team. They are behind locked doors with armed guards and heavy security. That is because they have discovered tiny little secrets to building engines that make them run stronger!

Again this is exactly the same displacement engine as the rest of the NASCAR teams but one car might literally run away from the pack.

One other point I have noticed that has been TOTALLY IGNORED is that this 911S engine still is running what appears to be dead stock MFI! Not High Butterfly but a stock air cleaner, plastic stacks, MFI pump etc.

It also has a dead stock distributor (not a twin plug).. It even has a stock MUFFLER!!!! It also still has the heavy air conditioning twin pulley and the 40LB compressor bolted on the case.

See we learned that on a 911 having 40lbs buried on the right rear corner helps in handling..NOT!

Oh and ***** HEAD (Charles) it was a TYPO! (0-80) 0-90).

If you think that and offer to beat a 930 to 80MPH is significally different then beating him to 90MPH is a back down... GEEZE!

"This old 911 will beat a 930 Turbo to 80MPH.. but not to 90MPH... It is a real slug"

I also limited the speed to 90MPH because that is easy to do on long freeway on-ramps. It is not dangerous and most likely no one will even notice. Jump on it side by side and by the top of the onramp we are at 90MPH then merge onto the freeway get off and do it again comming back (to prove it was not a mistake)

[charleskieffner]

malibuboy please reread your own cheezze bay ad. you have stated categorically that you can beat a turbo. that your redline is 8500rpm plus and that you will prove to all of us these 2 points. yet you refuse to allow another pelican to ride with you, due to the car thats for sale being buried behind other exotics. how do you show it to prospective buyers?

as far as being a poo poo head ..............i am! a very big poo poo head! one that has worked for porsche, one that has raced, one that has been successful racing, one that has been unsuccessful racing also, one that has wrenched and one that picks his fights wisely.

i jumped in here because i want to see your targa whuup ass on a 930 turbo. plain and simple. it will not only dispel rumour/myth and wishful thinking, but teach me a lesson i so sorely need! even though its the exact opposite of what occurred countless times in the seventies going back and forth from phx-tucson.

basically in off road lingo your telling me a class 10 car will beat mcmillians porsche class 1 car!

your audacity on this forum has sparked quite a few replies and scientific figures that do not jive with your wishful thinking, nor your questionable cheezze bay ad.

i honestly believe that your car will never race a turbo, let alone beat one, due to this being just another bench racing bull session. nor will you allow any other pelican to sit in, let alone drive your targa for fear of being proven wrong. remember 8500RPM PLUS is what YOU QUOTED all of us! i didnt quote that, nor write that.

the facts that you have advertised have been questioned by guys from all different walks of life. some wealthier, some more intelligent, some that build engines, some that fly right side up and not on the deck(low life span),some that have raced, some that havent raced and some who read too many magazines.
but the fact remains I WANT TO SEE YOUR TARGA WHUUP ASS ON A 930 TURBO! so when is that going to be?

have i pissed you off?

have i called you on the carpet?

have i gotten your goat? i truly hope so.

i will believe it when i see it.

what bothers me most is the name dropping, the exotics you own, the trophies you have from 20 some odd years ago etc. all these things prove to me what a crock off poo poo your ad is.

i dont jump into things without knowing a good amount about the subject. i dont pick fights on here. i occasionally will relate my experiences good and bad. i have no fear of telling stories that didnt have a perfect ending. i dont live in la la land. i call them the way i see em good and bad. but the last thing i do is lay down a challenge and then walk away with another excuse.

i have to say malibuboy that this is one of the most enjoyable reads i have had in a long time. since im on the puter from 4am usually every morning for personal use and then on at 6am for work all day, i havent nor my friends or co workers LAUGHED SO HARD IN A LONG TIME! thank you so very much for the giggles. the only other two that brought so many laughs were the " TOWING A TRAILER W/MY 911" and the "K&N" filter vs paper filter one, that had us rolling across the floor with our sides splitting from laughter. BUT YOURS HAS HANDS DOWN PUT US INTO HYSTERICS and thats why we are on pelican porsche and bimmer everyday. because laughter is the best medicine when surrounded by MORONS with questionable sales practices and quotations. by the way HOW DOES HELEN KELLER LIKE THE TARGA! have you changed the tach and speedo to BRAILLE YET!

[DohertyCM]

With enough HP a brick would fly.

Just look at the F-4

or the

Jet truck...... Jet motor on a Diesel rig with speeds well over 300 mph...and its aerodynamically challenged..

HEY 911's use to run in NASCAR.....



Hey Charles....I beat 930s all the time in Autocrosses...Does that count?

[tonypeoni]

Wow there is so much hate on this board lol.
You would think just the opposite but honestly Ferrari chat is a lot more friendly. You almost never find the B.S. and boasting you do on this board! We should save our attacks for the Mustang guys as they are the real enemy. They are the first one to shout obscenity's from two lanes over at the stoplight. Often ganging up on Porsche's In mall parking lots.
DEATH TO MUSTANG spare the the overly exuberant pelican!

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by Bill Verburg
I thought about closing or moving this thread, may still do that but this is sort of amusing, and first I just want to throw out some facts

1973 Carrera RS has more power, better aero and a theoretical top speed of 153mph, gear limit and aero limit are very close on an RS but a targa aero package is much worse, gearing is the same as for RS

short gears wil lower the theoretical top speed

the pics on e-bay do not show a car even as low and aero efficient as my '72S targa which certainly was never able to hit 145 at any DE or 8500rpm.


stock '72S is redlined a@7200, stock rev limiter 7300, yes you can rev past that, a little

factory claims for top speed of a '72-73 S was 143mph

For Gawd's sakes Bill, don't confuse this Malibu guy with FACTS... According to him, I don't know Jack about the performance of a 2.4 S, because I quoted some C&D test results, which I agreed with. I guess having owned one since 1974 isn't a factor....

I love guys like this....

[Mr9146]

I am going to repeat my previous statement, albeit with a slight adjustment. Observe:

This is all retarded.

Thank you.

[execmalibu .]

Charles,

You definately win the experience dept.

You say that you have raced and crashed... THATS GREAT.. I have raced, won but I have never crashed.. I'll have to try that one day to see if I like it..NOT!

My challenge still stands!
My $100 against anyone elses $100 that the engine will pull 8,500 RPM in 1ST,2ND AND 3RD.

There has been only one guy that has stepped forward but he wanted to go for a ride for free! He was not a prospective buyer just a poser!

So far not one person has stepped up with a $100 they are willing to loose!

In addition at least 2 well respected Porsche experts that have confirmed in writing in this thread that they have been there,seen,witnessed exactly what I have said herein is true..

"I have a 2.8 Carrera and at 7,800 RPM in 5th that blue Targa was on my Butt"

But it is very interesting to me that they are continually ignored! The PELICAN GODS have spoken all must conform!

To the guy that says that I am boasting...

I have been insulted, called a liar and told that I am full of BULL****!

When I post my experiences and offer such things as trophies,photos and witnesses I am doing so in response to these statements. I offer these not to boast but as tangibile proof, evidence.

You guys have thrown me a pitch and when I hit it out of the park you insult me even more and say thats impossible and that I cheated!