education: how to fix it?

[nostatic]

ok, so what do you propose we do about it?

[cantdrv55]

Originally posted by nostatic
The Chinese school system requires considerably more time and effort than ours. Western kids who go over there get a rude awakening into what hard work really means. That being said, their system has weaknesses in that they pretty much beat much of the creativity out of them at a young age, and the pressure to perform on national tests is immense. There needs to be a balance...

Is the Chinese education system at one end of the spectrum and ours is the other? If not, maybe our system already is the balance we are looking for.

[the]

Originally posted by nostatic
ok, so what do you propose we do about it?

I don't know, but it helps to first accurately identify the root of the problem. Otherwise it's just a waste of time.

Schools are merely a reflection of the community, the parents and the students. Not the other way around.

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by nostatic
it's on the table. Tell me how it will work. The various implications.

Vouchers are all about giving people choice...the current system of government schools only allows the rich true choice...those able to pay taxes AND choose the school their children attend.

I remember a speech given by then Congressman Sonny Bono during an education funding bill's discussion. He ranted...and ranted well, pointing out that not one congressman sent his children to a public school. Not one, including himself. The rant went on, including the idea that the rest of the people in the country should be allowed the choices that they in Congress had.

It'll never happen...the Teacher's Union is too strong, has too many politicians as lapdogs...

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by arcsine
I heard a report regarding a European country where each school is subject to survival-of-the-fittest rules. Parents have the right to place their child in whatever school they like and the school gets the money for that child. If the school does not perform well in educating the children, the child gets pulled as does the money. Enough students leave and the school goes bankrupt and closes. In this program, the teachers have a vested interest in the success of the children and the parents have options if the school is not performing up to par.

What is underlying this are dedicated and attentive parents that want a good education for their child not just wanted Little Johnny to pass regardless of his performance.

Uh...that's in effect, a "voucher system". Like I said, the powerful teacher's union here in the USA will never let it fly...

(edit) The priorities of this union are:
1. Higher wages and benefits for a growing membership
2. Indocrination of the students through politically liberal biased classes, many including secular humanistic thinking.
3. Education of students...math, science, etc. (Actually true education is wayyy down there on this union's wish list.)

This Union has been so effective that many hearing it's name, "The National Education Association", don't even recognize it as the politically powerful union it is.

[widgeon13]

I think some standard of dress would be nice. Teach them all one language, ENGLISH. Allow the teachers to have some ability to discipline children, get rid of bad teachers (there are far too many).

[Jims5543]

Fixing Public Schools is akin to fixing Government. I will NEVER be fixed and will always be broke.

Joe - You say parents need to be more involved and I agree with you. Except, I am a case where I AM involved and my son still did poory and it seemed to be a direct reflection of how poor of a teacher he had. When I tried to get to the bottom of the problem I was a trouble make and unwelcome at the school. Then the "You have no idea how hard it is to be a teacher" crap began.


Pulling my kid out of public school and enrolling him in a private Monessori school was the best move I have ever made. My 3 y/o is enrolled in the same school now and will never see public school.

BTW - My 3 y/o is learning about Asia this month, if you saw what they are teaching 3 year olds in this school you would be blown away.

I am VERY thankful I am able to afford to pull my kids from the public mess and get them in a private school where they are guaranteed to thrive.

[pwd72s]

Jim, I agree with you completely. I would urge than you change your nomenclature though. These are not "public schools". They are "Government schools"...thoroughly controlled by the teacher's union. The so-called "National Education Association". RoninLB dubbed them well...the national EXTORTION association.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by pwd72s
Vouchers are all about giving people choice...the current system of government schools only allows the rich true choice...those able to pay taxes AND choose the school their children attend.

I remember a speech given by then Congressman Sonny Bono during an education funding bill's discussion. He ranted...and ranted well, pointing out that not one congressman sent his children to a public school. Not one, including himself. The rant went on, including the idea that the rest of the people in the country should be allowed the choices that they in Congress had.

It'll never happen...the Teacher's Union is too strong, has too many politicians as lapdogs...

you didn't answer my question. How will it work? What are the logistics? All you did was give bumper sticker slogans.

[red-beard]

Originally posted by nostatic
What "soft crap"? You mean like art and music?

Yes, exactly.

[nostatic]

hmm. I have to disagree. Creativity and innovative thinking are the last advantage we have in this country over the rest of the world. imho those are nurtured by early exposure and training in art and music, to go along with the sciences. I think that just teaching "facts" will lead us down into a competition we cannot win.

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by nostatic
you didn't answer my question. How will it work? What are the logistics? All you did was give bumper sticker slogans.

The logistics are simple...for every child in the government schools, you issue a "voucher" to the parents of that child. Pick a pecentage...I'd say 75-80% of the "per pupil cost" of the government school in that child's area...the true cost of the school he or she was once forced to go to assuming his parents could not afford a private school.

Those students whose parents choose other than the local government school will get that 80% voucher money, will go where they will. When that student leaves the government school, that school loses ALL of it's government funding for that student. Those parents who feel the government school is a-okay can keep their children enrolled there. It's a CHOICE.

Only then will we discover what "excellence in education" really means. The union monopoly will have ended... let choice and the market decide.

[red-beard]

I am not about teaching facts. I'm about teaching skills. We need kids to be able to add before we even THINK about anything else. I am also against Government sponsored sports. Languages? Certainly. How much of the days are wasted on "Health" class? Too much effort is spent on the "extra-carricular" activities without regard to the core subjects.

You wanted to know how to fix our education system. There are real, workable ideas.

[Shuie]

There are no perfect solutions to problems that are this complicated, but I say privatize it and run it like a business.

[berettafan]

i think 'the' correctly addressed red-beard's point. art vs. math vs. music....doesn't matter if the parents have a 'whatever gets the kid to shut up and leave me alone' attitude about child rearing.

PWD and I, along with others, had a pretty lively disagreement on the voucher system if anyone cares to do a search. i don't happen to agree with him but both sides of the argument are fleshed out pretty well in the thread in question (sorry don't know how to link).

[red-beard]

And what makes you think that art or music have anything to do with technical innovation? I know plenty of people with little or no artistic or musical talent and they are extremely innovative and creative in the technical sciences.

[red-beard]

Originally posted by berettafan
i think 'the' correctly addressed red-beard's point. art vs. math vs. music....doesn't matter if the parents have a 'whatever gets the kid to shut up and leave me alone' attitude about child rearing.

I completely disagree. If you have intelligence and talent, you will have a chance. One of my best friends, who is also a member of this board, had a pretty crummy upbringing. The man is bright, has ambition and will shortly be doctor. It wasn't the school and some programs music program that got him where is now. He did. It wasn't a great supporting family. It was he, and himself alone.

The schools should teach the skills. If people want fluff, they should pay for it themselves.

[nostatic]

I would offer that the voucher amount is nowhere close to the cost of a decent private school. So you have the same situation, you are only supplementing the upper and upper/middle class families. Middle class might be able to afford private, low income no way. So you expedite white flight and exacerbate the class distinctions. That's my read on how it would play out. I don't think it is as simple as it seems.

As for the families, of course that is true. But schools can do better than they do now. I think the key is to show that one can actually have a better life by getting an education. And create an environment that stimulates the kids instead of beating them down.

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by red-beard
And what makes you think that art or music have anything to do with technical innovation? I know plenty of people with little or no artistic or musical talent and they are extremely innovative and creative in the technical sciences.

Here we go again...CHOICE is the key! Think your kid will be the next Eric Clapton? By all means send him, with the aid of a voucher, to a musically oriented school. Think he's a natural jock? Send him to a jock school. Computer science? He to be the next Bill Gates? Hey, a revenge of the nerds school. CHOICE! In the government schools, choice is limited...very limited...to the point of it being no choice.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by red-beard
And what makes you think that art or music have anything to do with technical innovation? I know plenty of people with little or no artistic or musical talent and they are extremely innovative and creative in the technical sciences.

I think it does. Many of the most creative thinkers I know are also artists or musicians. It exercises a different part of the brain. I also know lots of very talented engineers who create stuff that is virtually unusable because they have no sense of aesthetic.

Creativity and innovation are tricky concepts. But I think you're in the minority in believing there is no correlation between the arts and the ability to think creatively in the sciences.