education: how to fix it?

[red-beard]

Show me one major Musical talent, who is also a genius in a hard science or engineering?

[Shuie]

Show me one luthier or an amp builder that doesn't understand physics, harmonics, or electricity.

Music can be very technical, analytical, and mathematical. The science is there, if you want to learn it.

[red-beard]

You are talking about the equipment. Show me a major musical talent who is also a genius in a hard science or engineering.

[Shuie]

Fine, show me a luthier or a tech thats not a failed musician.

[cantdrv55]

uhh, doesn't our very own Nostatic have a Phd in Physics? I understand that he's pretty musically inclined.

[Shuie]

The smartest, most analytical, most technical, most absolutely brilliant person I've ever known has told me that his greatest regret in this life was not learning to be a musician.

Music theory is pure math. Stringed instrument theory is pure mechanical physics. I don't understand why any math or science geek would not also be supportive of music programs in schools.

[red-beard]

Is he a MAJOR musical talent? Next you'll be telling me that beiong a Saxophone player made Bill Clinton a better President

[arcsine]

Nostatic's PhD is in Chemistry.

I have been associated with university and corporate research all my professional career. A great percentage of the highly trained technical staff have musical or artistic talents. Singers, musicians, photographers, painters, graphic design, glass blowers, dancers; you name it, I've seen scientists that do it.

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally posted by red-beard
Show me one major Musical talent, who is also a genius in a hard science or engineering?

Huey Lewis scored a perfect 800 on his math SATs.

I think that if those that are great at music normally get heavy into it. They don't go down the long path of science and engineering.

I do know a ton of scientists and engineers that are very talented musicians and would be great musicians if they focused on it.

I think genius is rather specfic, a math genius isn't an engineering genius and a chemistry genius isn't a physics genius.

[nostatic]

to be honest, I probably could make a decent living as a musician. But I chose a different path. I know a fair amount of scientists that could be making a living that way. One of our programmers toured with a number of major jazz artists on trombone.

Caltech had two jazz big bands. The Thursday night band was pretty good. They also had chamber groups as well. My ex wife was a bassoonist who subbed with the Pacific Symphony, played drums in the Monday night jazz band, and finished her phd in mechanical engineering from Caltech, now up at Sandia.

[Lothar]

Originally posted by the
The core of the problem isn't curriculum, funding, etc. etc.

The core of the problem is the students, and their parents.

As much at the core of the problem are the teachers unions that are sworn to protect and defend mediocrity.

Curriculum most certainly is a core problem. Most school curriculum has been dumbed-down to make people believe that the schools are doing a better job. When you compare what our kids learn and at what age compared to other parts of the world, it is obvious that we expect very little in government schools.

The primary problem with public education is that the education establishment is not answerable to the customer: parents and students. The reason for that is the total lack of competition. As long as private school is only for the rich, everyone else will have to settle for what our tax dollars are pissed away on.

[Lothar]

Originally posted by red-beard
Show me one major Musical talent, who is also a genius in a hard science or engineering?

Tom Sholz - Guitarist for Boston. MIT graduate with a masters in electrical engineering. He worked as a senior product design engineer for Polaroid before finding success with Boston.

[red-beard]

You aren't seeing my point. The assertion is that TRAINING in music and art will help someone in science/engineering/technical issues. I expect it is the other way around. Someone who is creative/intelligent can make it in both fields.

Lothar - thanks for the post. Sholz is fantastic.

OTOH: WAYNE: can you play guitar?

[jkarolyi]

I was going to mention Sholz too...I agree with nostatic that our creativity is the best thing the US has going for it. Keep the music and art classes (it sowed the seeds of art appreciation for me), but it must be balanced with the hard sciences and math.

I really think vouchers are the solution though...I read a study that found that public schools cost MORE per student than sending them to private schools! This is the same reason you see public housing blocks being torn down everywhere...its cheaper to provide section 8 vouchers for poor people to live in nicer, private apartment complexes than to have the government manage housing themselves.

Once you take into account the incredible bureacracy in our educational system, its not surprising. Isn't there a ratio of two managers, administrators, superintendents, etc. for every single teacher?

Want real change:

1. Find out how much an average private school education costs.
2. fire the entire non-teaching bureaucrats in the educational system, and any union teachers who strike in sympathy with them. Sell the school campuses to private businesses, and allow the remaining teachers to negotiate their salaries with them.
3. Use the savings to fund vouchers so that even poor kids can afford a middling cost private school.

I have a Masters in Education and taught high school for a few years, but I went into technological training and distance education at a private University because I was so disgusted at the the way unions and complacency have a hold on our public schools, as well as parents (both rich and poor) who could give a rats ass about their kids education.

[nostatic]

Jay, in my area private schools are much more expensive than per-student costs for public. Using 04/05 data, average per pupil cost in CA was $8200. A typical private school in west LA is easily twice that.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by nostatic
Jay, in my area private schools are much more expensive than per-student costs for public. Using 04/05 data, average per pupil cost in CA was $8200. A typical private school in west LA is easily twice that.

Are you saying that the total revenue to the public schools divided by the number of pupils is $8,200 in California?

[jkarolyi]

I'd bet that's the dollar amount the state or county spends per student, not including what the federal government contributes, which is considerable. I have a hard time believing that a privately run school, contained at the school itself and without the huge bureaucracy overhead, would cost more per student.

Have you ever been to a education district office? They're huge office buildings full of bureaucrats who...*shudder* this is bringing back a lot of unpleasant memories.

Let me see if I can dig up that article for you...

[pwd72s]

Government schools indulge in creative book keeping...the only true figure is total icome in, divided by the number of students.
According to figures published in the 1 February 2007 issue of this state's largest newspaper, THE OREGONIAN:

State K-12 government schools budget..$6.3 BILLION
number of students...562,828

$11,193.47 each.

Yet the state education department claims a cost of around $8,000 per kid per year. Why the difference?

[lendaddy]

A quick search shows that he's at the very least close. The highest estimates including fed money, lottery money, etc..only put it around $10k so it's close enough for discussion purposes. IMHO

[lendaddy]

INteresting Paul, I wonder how that happens.