education: how to fix it?

[jkarolyi]

Wow...cheaper than I thought. Any state-wide stats on the average cost of a California private school, including Christian ones which *can* be very good schools and are reasonably priced? I'm sure the public schools in NoStatics area pay a lot more per student than, say, Bakersfield.

In any case, if it costs a little bit more for far better education, I would pay higher taxes for it. And this coming from a staunch conservative.

[nostatic]

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:95RkKeoc-JcJ:irepp.stanford.edu/documents/GDF/SUMMARIES/Imazeki.pdf+per+student+cost+in+california&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

varies in CA from $5800 to $23800 depending on the district.

Christian schools are not an acceptible alternative for many people. I don't know that it is fair to consider those in calculations of averages (or at least break them out as a separate number).

I think there is a market for "new" private schools. I'm pondering that right now actually...

[nostatic]

http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/showarticlefeature/ca/197

Private schools cost money. Private schools do not receive tax revenues, but instead are funded through tuition, fundraising, donations and private grants. According to the National Association of Independent Schools (NAIS), the median tuition for their member private day schools in 2005-2006 in the United States was close to $14,000 for grades 1 to 3, $15,000 for grades 6 to 8 and $16,600 for grades 9 to 12. The median tuition for their member boarding schools was close to $29,000 for grades 1 to 3, $32,000 for grades 6 to 12. Note that of the 28,384 private schools in the United States, about 1,058 are affiliated with NAIS. The Digest of Education Statistics 2005 from the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) reports that for the 1999-2000 school year, the average private school tuition was about $4,700.

Parochial schools generally charge less. According to the National Catholic Educational Association, in their annual statistical report in 2005-2006, the average elementary school tuition for Catholic schools (in 2005) was $2,607; the average freshman tuition (for 2002-2003) was $5,870. Catholic Schools enroll more students (49%) than any other segment of private schools.

[Rick Lee]

Originally posted by LubeMaster77
Huey Lewis scored a perfect 800 on his math SATs.

I think that if those that are great at music normally get heavy into it. They don't go down the long path of science and engineering.

I do know a ton of scientists and engineers that are very talented musicians and would be great musicians if they focused on it.

I think genius is rather specfic, a math genius isn't an engineering genius and a chemistry genius isn't a physics genius.

Huey Lewis, then call Hugh Kregg, graduated from my prep school in NJ.

Anyway, I think a return to corporal punishment, school uniforms and strict discipline would do wonders. It would get the real bad kids kicked out, so they wouldn't disrupt class for the other who want to learn.

[Lothar]

Abolish the federal Department of Education. The federal government has no constitutional responsibility for providing public education. That is the sole responsibility of the states. Federal tax dollars wasted at the federal level could be better used at the local or state level if only the fed would stop confiscating them.

This is simply another example of big government skimming where they have no business in the first place. Dept. of Education, like many other gov't agencies, exist solely for the purpose of adding more needless layers of bureaucracy and to employ more NEA types who can't teach, much less do.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I'd throw Leonardo DaVinci into the mix for consideration. Truly a "whole brained" individual. He had excellent understanding of science and scientific method, but was also tremendously gifted as an artist, sculptor and his greatest contributions were in what came out of his IMAGINATION, not necessarily his analysis.

Anyway, "education" as I see it should be more than glorified trade school. There is intrinsic value to the legitimate study of things that there might not necessarily be a huge market (rated in terms of dollars) for. People like Ghandi, John Lennon, Mozart, Mother Teresa, Michalengelo, Bach, Frank Lloyd Wright or Le Corbusier did quite a bit to influence the world - and it wasn't because they buried their heads into equations or hard sciences.

Humans are "luminous beings". We have a rational, pragmatic (or robotic) side AND an irrational, emotional (or unpredicatable) side. It's what makes us who we are and it's ridiculous to try to "cut out" part of what makes us so uniquely human by reducing ourselves to computers.

We own Porsches, don't we? Isn't that kind of. . . well. . . IRRATIONAL?!?! I certainly think so - but it doesn't make me enjoy it any less.

I'd suggest Douglas Hofsteader's excellent book "Godel-Escher-Bach" for some BRILLIANT insights into the connections between art, science, consciousness, intelligence and thought. Then get back to me for an informed (rather than opinionated) discussion.

[sammyg2]

first, Private school vouchers. Once the public school systems have some real competition they will have to start performing (for a change) and stop going on strike every other day (for another change).

Second, close the borders so that both the teachers and students can speak english.
Understanding the language goes a long way towards improving one's education.

[Seahawk]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Anyway, I think a return to corporal punishment, school uniforms and strict discipline would do wonders. It would get the real bad kids kicked out, so they wouldn't disrupt class for the other who want to learn.

I may have posted this before.

Senior in high school, Catholic Prep School. Sister Alice Joseph (AJ) is not happy with my facial shaving regime. She warns me once that I need to attend to my whiskers. I do not take heed because I'm just me being me.

On the occasion of my second shaving violation, AJ marches me down to the men's room, produces a can of NAIR and directs me to apply it to my face.

There were no further whisker rebellions.

I survived.

[Superman]

Blah Blah Blah. You guys are dancing around the real issue. You talk about public versus private. Competiton. Vouchers. Science and math versus art and music. The role of parents. That stuff is irrelevant. The real question is:

How is this Bush's fault?

[Superman]

Originally posted by Shuie
There are no perfect solutions to problems that are this complicated, but I say privatize it and run it like a business.

I don't doubt that competition would be beneficial. Vouchers are worth considering. Teachers' Union agenda should not override public interest. But.......

I think the quote above is interesting. First, if you run a school like a business, then guess what it's agenda will be? It's purpose will be to make money. Some of you blindly conclude that its interest in profits will maximize the quality of its services and minimize its costs. For you guys who believe that, I have a bridge for sale in the New York City area.

Further, frankly, the amount of money flowing through the nation's education systems is COLOSSAL by any measure. OF COURSE private industry wants to get their hands on that. I remember when there was a serious suggestion that we privatize the nation's hot lunch programs. I suspect that Halliburton was the contractor we had in mind. I am exceedingly skeptical about the prediction that privatizing our nation's schools would reduce the overall cost of education. Very skeptical. Similar to my skepticism when the nation's phone systems were privatized. Whose phone bill is lower today?

There are many potential problems. For example, one of the biggest differences between a public organization and a private one is that a public organization is required to answer questions and open its books and provide copies of its documents. Public disclosure. If we privatize education, we'd fly blind from that moment forward.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Superman
I don't doubt that competition would be beneficial. Vouchers are worth considering. Teachers' Union agenda should not override public interest. But.......

I think the quote above is interesting. First, if you run a school like a business, then guess what it's agenda will be? It's purpose will be to make money. Some of you blindly conclude that its interest in profits will maximize the quality of its services and minimize its costs. For you guys who believe that, I have a bridge for sale in the New York City area.

Further, frankly, the amount of money flowing through the nation's education systems is COLOSSAL by any measure. OF COURSE private industry wants to get their hands on that. I remember when there was a serious suggestion that we privatize the nation's hot lunch programs. I suspect that Halliburton was the contractor we had in mind. I am exceedingly skeptical about the prediction that privatizing our nation's schools would reduce the overall cost of education. Very skeptical. Similar to my skepticism when the nation's phone systems were privatized. Whose phone bill is lower today?

There are many potential problems. For example, one of the biggest differences between a public organization and a private one is that a public organization is required to answer questions and open its books and provide copies of its documents. Public disclosure. If we privatize education, we'd fly blind from that moment forward.

Well, if they end up costing more and producing worse results they won't have any customers and hence be unable to affect the system either way. Ain't capitalism great Sup?

[Bill Verburg]

Originally posted by the
Better parenting/parents who take responsibility for their children's education.

Until that happens, to the extent the education system is broken in the US (I'm not sure I agree with that), nothing will help.

Most poorly performing students are poorly raised children. The school system never can be charged with raising children.

That's the biggest issue right there

"Reintroduce the opportunity to fail" another good idea, many kids seem to be raised as the center of their familial universe, right or wrong they twist their folks around their fingers, they believe that they are entitled everything fom material goods to praise to good grades and promotion whether earned or not, when they get to school and subsequently work it's obviously someone elses fault that they don't do well.

[PeteBrown]

Education has everything to do with the parents and less to do with the school. While I am biased by my and my wife's Midwest experiences (and celebrating my mother's well recognized 32-year career as an elementary teacher), I believe a child's performance is more reflective of his/her parents relative success and past education standards.

In my case, my public school classmates' success range from U-2 pilots, M.D.'s and successful entrepreneurs to digging ditches or going to jail. What was the underlying factor? The parents. Most kids, whether smart or dumb, went to the appropriate univesity or college relative to their mental or socio-economic background to maintain or improve their standard of living. Rich kids went to the appropriate school to take over their parents' companies, while most others worked hard to become self made. Despite the variety of backgrounds, a few still learned the hard way that taking short cuts does not work in the long run.

What I noticed most was that many from the parochial and even some private schools were behind the public school curriculum. Please note that none of the kids from any of the parochial schools attended an AP courses in my high school. However, in nearly every case, the private schools knew more about colleges and their associated requirements for attendance than the public schools. I believe a lot of this is a result of the parents of those student's demanding that the schools help them find the best school for their kids.

YMMV

[PeteBrown]

Sorry for the typo.

[Shuie]

Originally posted by Superman
....blah...I think the quote above is interesting......blah

I didn't say it was the perfect answer. Okay fine, lets not privatize the entire educational system. I'll accept that there is the potential for problems there. I didn't want to write a novel, but the point was that the system would probably not be completely dysfunctional if some aspects of it were managed more like a business.

At a minimum, an A-Team of consultants could be contracted to do a real analysis of the current system and then to improve the infrastructure, the integrated systems, the talent and learning management aspects, before handing it back over to the public sector for day-to-day management.

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by Lothar
Abolish the federal Department of Education. The federal government has no constitutional responsibility for providing public education. That is the sole responsibility of the states. Federal tax dollars wasted at the federal level could be better used at the local or state level if only the fed would stop confiscating them.

This is simply another example of big government skimming where they have no business in the first place. Dept. of Education, like many other gov't agencies, exist solely for the purpose of adding more needless layers of bureaucracy and to employ more NEA types who can't teach, much less do.

That would be progress. Reduce the NEA back to crying to the locals about how putting more money in the gas tank would eliminate the need for an overhaul...

[K.B.]

I see lots of opinions and very little data.

[legion]

Abolish the DOE. End redistribution of education funds across school districts. This will make school districts 100% dependent on local funding, and directly accountable to local parents, not bums in Washington who hand out other people's money for a living.

[K.B.]

Opinions, opinions opinions...........

I'm not opposed to a brain storming session but, what principals concepts and ideas have proven to work 100% of the time. What works well in other countries, what school systems work well for all kids and why?

On the other end, what things have shown to a high percentage that they don't work. Individual anecdotal occurances can add up, but what do the numbers say. Is politics helping the situation or hurting it? Is school/teacher bashing ever a good thing?

The current crop of youngsters are quite different from anything ever before. A product of our culture? Whatever the reason, the challenge to be a 100% effective teacher is a pretty big challenge with not too many benefits. The only real measure of successful teaching are the smiles and victories a teacher sees each day.

[Lothar]

Originally posted by K.B.
Opinions, opinions opinions...........

I'm not opposed to a brain storming session but, what principals concepts and ideas have proven to work 100% of the time. What works well in other countries, what school systems work well for all kids and why?

On the other end, what things have shown to a high percentage that they don't work. Individual anecdotal occurances can add up, but what do the numbers say. Is politics helping the situation or hurting it? Is school/teacher bashing ever a good thing?

The current crop of youngsters are quite different from anything ever before. A product of our culture? Whatever the reason, the challenge to be a 100% effective teacher is a pretty big challenge with not too many benefits. The only real measure of successful teaching are the smiles and victories a teacher sees each day.

Part 1: Competition works 100% of the time and makes all participants operate with greater efficiency and quality.

Part 2: Government monopoly fails 100% of the time. School and teacher bashing is good if it is deserved and advances the cause of allowing real competition between schools. Teachers unions routinely defend mediocrity, and sometimes even incompetence. People of modest means are unhappy with the product of government schools but have not the means to access private alternatives. The elitist ruling-class types don't care, because they have the means to opt out of governement schools.

Part 3: While kids are a product of our culture, I don't believe that kids are fundamentally different. Permissive or ignorant attitudes on the part of parents and other adults may make the kids behave differently, but given structure and discipline, kids will perform the same as the always have. If the inmates run the asylum, there is little hope that they will get a quality education in the process.