Angry White Man

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by nostatic

And the AWM doesn't realize the privileged position he has held in this society for the past 200+ years. Or maybe he does, and doesn't want to relinquish it.

This angry (okay - I'm really not so angry) white man suggest that this "priviledged position" was earned, not given. Crybabies might suggest that it was taken by force, but in fact, it was assumed because no one else stepped up to the plate. He innovated, explored, invented, rescued, and yes, conquered. Humanity is not wihout it's faults and the AWM does not have the corner on the atrocity market by a long shot. In fact, were it not for the AWM, the bleeding heart would not be able to exist and there would be a lot more hurt in this world.

I'm white and happy to be so. When I hang out with a black or Mexican guy he hopefully is just as happy with who he is. I judge people based on their behavior - not their skin color. I could care less to be honest.

and.........

"You can deny the blame, but it's your legacy. Just as it helped you to get where you are, it is also your albatross. Payback is a beotch...welcome to the new world order. "

What a bunch of horse*****. Do you think whites are the only bad guys in history? Do you think we have this "position of priviledge" because we were the biggest bad a$$es on the planet? The Indians, Mexicans, and the blacks had plenty of bad guys of their own that sold out their own. Check out Africa right now. They're killing each other off by the millions. It is absolutely NOT my legacy. I'm just a blip on the radar of history and happen to be doing well right now. Check back in 500 years and let me know how we're doing then.

[450knotOffice]

Wow, Todd. Can't say I agree at all with your position (and I tend to agree with you more than not).

[DARISC]

So, if I understand correctly, you angry white men believe that black men born at the same time you were, into the same starting circumstances as yourselves, who worked every bit as hard and made as intelligent choices in their lives as you have, were on the same level playing field as you were, stood the same chance, without any help from any gov't. programs, of achieving the same degree of success in this country as you have?

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Of course the white male built the place! Maybe on the backs of the chinese, hispanics and blacks, but nevertheless HE was the Project Manager. Give credit where credit is due!

Although intended sarcastically (?), this was reality and the reason why Todd has written what he has. Example - Chinese weren't even allowed to become naturalized citizens until WWII. Only around 1900 was the government forced to grant citizenship to chinese born in the US. Laws were written that prevented them from making claims on gold (gold was the reason many came to california). They often did jobs that others would not. Check it out if you're not a believer. http://hoover.archives.gov/exhibits/China/Chinese_Americans/

All that being said however, those of us of any color or background who have gotten themselves up the economic ladder by the anglo-sax "work eithic" or whatever philosophy/desire are more than a little disgusted with the continuous pandering that politicians are engaged in. The best thing that can be said about McCain (because he's made some poor decisions himself eg/immigration bill) is that he has not been a big supporter of pork spending.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

Wow, Todd. Can't say I agree at all with your position (and I tend to agree with you more than not).

With all due respect, Scott, I don't believe Todd was taking any position, but rather simply citing historical fact.

[Hugh R]

DAR,

Not me. I'm saying I got where I am without any of those programs. There is a difference. I couldn't get a PELL Grant or any of those loans, I got passed over for at least one governmental job promotion explicitly because I was a white male. I ended up leaving when I was flat out told that the gubmit agency I worked for was under a mandate to promote more women and "people of color".

And what's with this "People of Color" crap. Everyone knows it a code phrase that means everyone except Cracker! And Honkey isn't a color? Also, that's just bad grammar, it's a dangling modifier. You wouldn't say "People of Blind" or People of Fat" would you? You'd say Fat People or Blind People.


I'm not going to be getting one of those stupid tax "rebates" even though I actually paid those taxes and many, many more times what those "rebates" will be. I never took unemployment, welfare, aid to families with dependent children, food stamps, Home Heating Oil Tax Credits, Earned income tax credit (snort, NOT, its a subsidy). I DID and DO pay Alternative Minimum Tax, every God Damn year!

If anything makes me angry (actually, I'm not, just a little fed up with the crap), it's the attitude of some people that because they aren't doing as well as they'd like, it must be someone else's (read, my) fault.

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by DARISC

So, if I understand correctly, you angry white men believe that black men born at the same time you were, into the same starting circumstances as yourselves, who worked every bit as hard and made as intelligent choices in their lives as you have, were on the same level playing field as you were, stood the same chance, without any help from any gov't. programs, of achieving the same degree of success in this country as you have?

No. We believe that unless we stop focusing on how different we are, there will never be equality and we will never completely get along.

Your "facts" are anything but.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

DAR,

Not me. I'm saying I got where I am without any of those programs. There is a difference. I couldn't get a PELL Grant or any of those loans, I got passed over for at least one governmental job promotion explicitly because I was a white male. I ended up leaving when I was flat out told that the gubmit agency I worked for was under a mandate to promote more women and "people of color".

And what's with this "People of Color" crap. Everyone knows it a code phrase that means everyone except Cracker! And Honkey isn't a color? Also, that's just bad grammar, it's a dangling modifier. You wouldn't say "People of Blind" or People of Fat" would you? You'd say Fat People or Blind People.


I'm not going to be getting one of those stupid tax "rebates" even though I actually paid those taxes and many, many more times what those "rebates" will be. I never took unemployment, welfare, aid to families with dependent children, food stamps, Home Heating Oil Tax Credits, Earned income tax credit (snort, NOT, its a subsidy). I DID and DO pay Alternative Minimum Tax, every God Damn year!

If anything makes me angry (actually, I'm not, just a little fed up with the crap), it's the attitude of some people that because they aren't doing as well as they'd like, it must be someone else's (read, my) fault.

My feelings EXACTLY.....+1000

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

No. We believe that unless we stop focusing on how different we are, there will never be equality and we will never completely get along.

I believe that's true and reasonable (didn't get a sense of that from the angry posts I've been reading).

Your "facts" are anything but.

What "facts" of mine are you referring to?

..

[SLO-BOB]

You said that Todd's statement was fact. I disagree. I'm white, 3rd generation American on one side and back to the Mayflower on the other. My mother's parents fled Nazi Germany. Some of my aunts and uncles didn't make it and died in concentration camps. They were white and German. They simply did not agree with the Nazis. My father's parents, parents parents were distinguished for bravery, fighting for human rights and to put an end to slavery. I resent it when someone implies that the problems of others are my legacy. It is not my legacy. I couldn't be more proud of my ancestors. If you want to suggest that success is my legacy, so be it.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

DAR,

Not me. I'm saying I got where I am without any of those programs.

Hugh,

If you reread my question you'll note that I excluded any gov't provided advantages for blacks. That clarified, how would you answer the question? It's really a straight forward, non-trick, "yes or no" question, not meant to raise anyone's ire.

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

DAR,

Not me. I'm saying I got where I am without any of those programs. There is a difference. I couldn't get a PELL Grant or any of those loans, I got passed over for at least one governmental job promotion explicitly because I was a white male. I ended up leaving when I was flat out told that the gubmit agency I worked for was under a mandate to promote more women and "people of color".

And what's with this "People of Color" crap. Everyone knows it a code phrase that means everyone except Cracker! And Honkey isn't a color? Also, that's just bad grammar, it's a dangling modifier. You wouldn't say "People of Blind" or People of Fat" would you? You'd say Fat People or Blind People.


I'm not going to be getting one of those stupid tax "rebates" even though I actually paid those taxes and many, many more times what those "rebates" will be. I never took unemployment, welfare, aid to families with dependent children, food stamps, Home Heating Oil Tax Credits, Earned income tax credit (snort, NOT, its a subsidy). I DID and DO pay Alternative Minimum Tax, every God Damn year!

If anything makes me angry (actually, I'm not, just a little fed up with the crap), it's the attitude of some people that because they aren't doing as well as they'd like, it must be someone else's (read, my) fault.

So, how about getting the attitude that things aren't equal from someone who also didn't go on welfare/unemployment, pays AMT every year, isn't going to get a tax rebate etc.? Oh, and try and get any special treatment because you have Chinese blood in you at a University (Eg/Cal-Berkeley). Back in the 80's, white women got more special treatment than chinese males.

What Todd has quoted is something simply to "man up" to. Why can't folks do that? And this is not directed at individuals. The past and present relationships/inequalities are things that the race of caucasians has done to other races and some of their own race.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

You said that Todd's statement was fact.

What part of what Todd said do you refute as fact?

I resent it when someone implies that the problems of others are my legacy. It is not my legacy.

You're taking it personally. It is this culture's legacy. That's a fact, to resent it makes no sense at all, regardless of the (also) fact that you personally nor your ancestors in no way contributed to that which has made it so.

I couldn't be more proud of my ancestors. If you want to suggest that success is my legacy, so be it.

I'm proud of mine as well, which really has nothing to do with why I am or am not an angry white man.

..

[nostatic]

for a group that loves to wave the "personal responsibility" flag, there seems to be a lot of whining and "poor me" going on.

I have worked very hard. But I also realize that many aspects of my life have been easier than those around me simply because of my race and gender. I have seen salary inequalities with my own eyes within my own departments. I have heard the offhand comments that people make that illustrate the sometimes subtle, other times overt bias and prejudice that lives in everyone (myself included).

I'm sure there are individual exceptions, but the bottom line is that historically if you are a white male you have a much better chance of getting ahead. This has changed in certain circumstances over the past few decades, in part due to specific efforts to "level the playing field." Are quotas right? Not sure I agree with them, but I understand why they were created.

I'm not saying that the "white culture" (a bit of an oxymoron if you ask me) has to disappear. But in fact US "culture" has always been a moving target, infused with a broad swath of diversity. Now the numbers are moving away from whites and that has them sick and nervous. I wonder how the native Americans felt when the whites started changed the demographics of the land?

Do we have to pay for the "sins of the father"? Well, someone usually does. There is no free lunch. And the white male by-and-large has had the cheapest lunch of any ethnic group in this country. That seems to be changing. You say it is bad. I don't say it is good or bad...it just is, but I at least am sensitive to the history of it.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by nostatic

for a group that loves to wave the "personal responsibility" flag, there seems to be a lot of whining and "poor me" going on.

I have worked very hard. But I also realize that many aspects of my life have been easier than those around me simply because of my race and gender. I have seen salary inequalities with my own eyes within my own departments. I have heard the offhand comments that people make that illustrate the sometimes subtle, other times overt bias and prejudice that lives in everyone (myself included).

I'm sure there are individual exceptions, but the bottom line is that historically if you are a white male you have a much better chance of getting ahead. This has changed in certain circumstances over the past few decades, in part due to specific efforts to "level the playing field." Are quotas right? Not sure I agree with them, but I understand why they were created.

I'm not saying that the "white culture" (a bit of an oxymoron if you ask me) has to disappear. But in fact US "culture" has always been a moving target, infused with a broad swath of diversity. Now the numbers are moving away from whites and that has them sick and nervous. I wonder how the native Americans felt when the whites started changed the demographics of the land?

Do we have to pay for the "sins of the father"? Well, someone usually does. There is no free lunch. And the white male by-and-large has had the cheapest lunch of any ethnic group in this country. That seems to be changing. You say it is bad. I don't say it is good or bad...it just is, but I at least am sensitive to the history of it.

Very well put.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by nostatic

sorry Sam, but you benefited from the mere fact of being white. Your race and gender made opportunities available to you that were not equally available to other races. I have no doubt you worked hard to get where you are, and earned what you have. That isn't what I'm talking about. It is about the ways that society has favored white males. You did not face the same challenges as a black man. Or a Chinese immigrant. Or a Hispanic.

It is what it is. You play the hand you are dealt, thats all you can ask for out of life. It's a part of our history and if anyone thinks it's easier elsewhere in the world (like they don't discriminate against Whites, other Asians, etc etc) it isn't so.

Everyone in my family at one time or another has experienced Racism - you can either bow to it and be a victim and allow it to grow or face it head - on.

I know it's there and I acknowledge it. If it's within my power to run the issue over - I do. It's all a part of being self reliant, whether that means being better at a given task, or starting your own so you don't need to play the game, or even being armed (that HAS happened before in to a few family members) so be it.

At least I know I'm doing it on my own, without any handouts.

rjp

[RANDY P]

On a day to day basis, in the city bigotry is basically a minor annoyance. I for one don't care if someone harbors any reservations on my character because of my background, maybe it's because I've been on my own long enough that I have no standards set by anyone to meet, maybe it's because I simply don't care about my fellow man, whatever it is no one phases me. You aren 't going to make me cry and go home..

If I bother you, great. It just means I have influence over you.

rjp

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

It is what it is. You play the hand you are dealt, thats all you can ask for out of life. ..........


At least I know I'm doing it on my own, without any handouts.

rjp

Thank God. Someone with some common sense. I have no idea if you're white, black, Mexican, or other, but I like what you have to say.

Dar - As far as Todd's statement, it's opinion. The fact is that whites have statistically been on top in the US and Europe in recent history. How they got there is a matter of opinion. There are many factors - too many for discussion here. To suggest that it's only because of wrong doing is pathetic and spurious. Whites haven't always been on top. The Chinese have dominated. Egypt dominated. Spain dominated. We happen to be doing well now.

As far as taking it personal - yes I do. Suggest to a black man that blacks ("in general - not talking about you") are lazy. He might take that just as personally.

I have black friends who have done very well for themselves - better than me. One of my closer black friends once told me that he took advantage of whatever benefits (offered because he was a "minority") he could get his hands on, not because he felt he needed it to keep up, or because it was owed him, but because, in his words - "I would have to be an idiot to say no to that!". We laughed about that for a long time. The reason it didn't bother me was because he was working a system that people like you put in place. Good for him. He's my equal (hell - he could buy and sell me!) because he will accept nothing less.

[WI wide body]

My take:

First of all, I must have missed out on all that white "benefit" that many others might have gotten since I went to work in a factory when I was 17 and nobody (including my family) ever gave me anything. And I do mean nothing! I would guess that few here could honestly say that.

Yes, I ended up with a great life that allowed me to travel the world and retire at 55 while always playing around with Porsches and racing bikes. Much of it was because of good luck and great timing per the machinery advancements at my company but I also worked my ass off while raising 6 kids. So I do not buy into the crap that I owe anybody anything because I made it happen.

I actually would kid around and tell some of the black guys that worked for me at the plant in VA that I could not figure out why I was their boss since they had family that went back 5 or 6 (or more) generations in the USA while I was a second generation American! What's wrong with that picture I would ask them? Some of the brighter ones would play the race card card but they knew what I meant.

Also, what Byron said about the Irish is fact. My wife's grandfather came from Ireland and he had a sign that he said he got when he passed thru NY. It was a help wanted sign and the top part said something about "No Thieves" and at the bottom it said "IRISH NEED NOT APPLY" in bigger print. I wanted that sign but her damn cousin got it.

As for how resourceful eveyone here seems to be, it appears to me that most of the really successful guys today are the exact opposite of what I'm reading here. Granted, most of the Pelican clientele might be a tad different, but most of the guys that I have met who drive new Porsches and are really successful are sure as hell NOT what I am reading here.

Many if not most of the really wealthy and successful guys of today could not even have survived 100 years ago much less ended up rich. It seems today that the fuking goobers who can't really do anything are the most successful. I have a very large extended family and some of the most successful often seem to be the least clever and able of the bunch.

Look at today's high powered CEO's, bean counters, lawyers, paper pushers, lobbyists, hedge fund managers, politicians, etc etc. Most of them have about as much knowhow and ability as a baby bear with boxing gloves. Yes, they have learned some skill or procedure that allows them to job the system as it has evolved today. But they probably could not take care of their own home or car or feed their family or provide the true necessities of life if their lives actually depended on it. They often actually seem to believe that buying iPods and gadgets and the neat colored phones that life now seems to require is akin to doing something.

Maybe I'm just a tad bitter but it sure seems to me that a whole bunch of white dip*****s have been hugely successful while basically not knowing their ass from a hole in the ground.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by WI wide body

Maybe I'm just a tad bitter but it sure seems to me that a whole bunch of white dip*****s have been hugely successful while basically not knowing their ass from a hole in the ground.

gee, I wonder how that happened