Angry White Man

[hytem]

A lot of white men have a right to be angry. Affirmative action has cost them a lot of jobs and a lot of opportunities in the select universities of the country. Especially white men in their 50s. It is younger white women who have benefitted, not blacks, who are a small part of the population(13%?)--in spite of what you see on TV. Males are now in the minority of students graduating from college these days.

Hillary Clinton is not the problem here--that anger is misdirected. The problem is affirmative action, which started during the Reagan years in the 80s. I've always thought Nancy was behind it, along with the congessional Democrats. It was more feminist than black. Discrimination is never good, one way or the other.

That a woman should run for President is a good thing--a black as well. The media spends a lot of time praising Obama for being the first serious black candidate, but you don't hear a whisper about Hillary being the first serious woman candidate. Maybe it's because all those pundits out there are white male--count 'em on NBC, Fox and the rest. The women should be up in arms about it. I understand the Wall St Journal and NPR have criticized the media for it.


As for the National RIFLE Association, they should stick to rifles. The problem in this country is handguns, not rifles. They should stay out of the handgun issue--it doesn't really affect hunters--and do the cops a big favor.

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

Thank God. Someone with some common sense. I have no idea if you're white, black, Mexican, or other, but I like what you have to say.

Dar - As far as Todd's statement, it's opinion. The fact is that whites have statistically been on top in the US and Europe in recent history. How they got there is a matter of opinion. There are many factors - too many for discussion here. To suggest that it's only because of wrong doing is pathetic and spurious. Whites haven't always been on top. The Chinese have dominated. Egypt dominated. Spain dominated. We happen to be doing well now.

....

No one has written that one can do anything other than playing the hand you're dealt. But it is disingenuous to suggest that the advantages in this country (what the thread was originally about) were once Chinese, or Egyptian, or Spanish. Furthermore, it flies in the face of written history to suggest that Todd's observations are opinion rather than fact. Why don't you read the link that I supplied. Kind of hard to have your gold claim taken away by fiat, or only allowed to play on one side of town (or get lynched). Or not be able to own land. You think writing laws to do these type of activities is not wrong-doing?

BTW Chinese, Japanese, or Indian (etc) folks have oppressed others, even their own. That's not what the thread is about or what this discussion is about.

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by nostatic

gee, I wonder how that happened

First happened when I saw one of them using toilet paper on a ground hog hole!

[SLO-BOB]

AP - Here's Todd's statement. It was in response to sammy's post. Show me some fact. This is pure opinion.

"You can deny the blame, but it's your legacy. Just as it helped you to get where you are, it is also your albatross. Payback is a beotch...welcome to the new world order."

The ironic thing is, the whiners that spray this kind of drivel are the very ones who are perpetuating the problem. They dwell on blame and payback - living in the past. We need to move forward and put racism and inequality behind us. Driving a wedge between cultures with divisive opinions serves no useful purpose and does more harm than good.

As far as your link - I read it. Can you go to China today, buy land, and be treated as an equal with no animosity? The answer is "No.". My point - again - is that kind of behavior is not unique to whites. My reference to other cultures, times, and lands was merely a comparison. What don't you get?

[nostatic]

you can call it divisive. I call it a realistic look at where we've been and where we are. I'm not perpetuating the problem...I'm trying to put it into perspective. If you want to talk about divisive cultural wars, take a look at pieces like the one that started this thread. "Angry White Man." Yeah, that's all about putting it behind us...

My point is that you can't move forward unless you understand where you've been and how you got here. Seems that some people have woken up and said, "hey, this is unfair!" I'm just trying to give some perspective. You can disagree with my take on it, but you'd be hard pressed to find any cultural anthropologist who would tell you that white males have not been a privileged class in this country and have in general reaped benefits relative to immigrants/minorities/women soley based on their sex and skin color.

And because it happens in other countries doesn't make it right. Take a look at how ethnic Chinese are treated by the Hans.

How we move forward is indeed the $64 question. But whiners that spray the "angry white man" drivel are in fact perpetuating the problem imho. *That* is an opinion, and you're free to disagree with it

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

AP - Here's Todd's statement. It was in response to sammy's post. Show me some fact. This is pure opinion.

"You can deny the blame, but it's your legacy. Just as it helped you to get where you are, it is also your albatross. Payback is a beotch...welcome to the new world order."

The ironic thing is, the whiners that spray this kind of drivel are the very ones who are perpetuating the problem. They dwell on blame and payback - living in the past. We need to move forward and put racism and inequality behind us. Driving a wedge between cultures with divisive opinions serves no useful purpose and does more harm than good.

As far as your link - I read it. Can you go to China today, buy land, and be treated as an equal with no animosity? The answer is "No.". My point - again - is that kind of behavior is not unique to whites. My reference to other cultures, times, and lands was merely a comparison. What don't you get?

You are correct. There probably has never been a culture or society that did not in some ways oppress or deny certain members. It seems to come with the territory.

I guess that the quick and easy answer is that anyone...be they an AWM who thinks he is now getting the shaft or any ethnic group that thinks they got the shaft in the past...who does not like what the USA has to offer should not let the door hit them in the ass on their way out. Big ole world out there just waiting for them. In fact, I can suggest a few places

[johnco]

will anyone stick up for america's newest opressed, repressed, insulted and ridiculed minority? the southern white male.. even rated lower than a SWM is the southern white male from south louisiana of french/spanish heritage. otherwise known as a cajun or coonass. feel free to oppress, repress, insult, deny opportunities, ridicule and reject.. just make sure we get our govt benefits, handouts, preferential hiring, promotion, placement treatment. low interest loans available only for the Cajun race, obtainable loans for college, setaside contracts. subsidised housing and free govt cheese.. we've got the hanging on the corner drinking beer thing down and plenty of guys are already screwing fat ugly white chicks can start making welfare babies. thow all the abuse, insults and ridicule at us you can. we dealt with that years ago when all your worthless yankee and fruitcake west coast losers came here looking for work in the oilfield. deal with it in movies filmed in the south, heard all the dumb jokes before, heard the stupid accents people use trying to ridicule our speech.. give us your best repression and bigotry. just get those benefits coming our way as soon as possible. don't worry about influencing mainstream culture. you won't understand zydeco or swamp pop and I* don't really think any urban wanna be cajun from over your way will ever consider wearing white rubber boots or speak cajunbonics

[stomachmonkey]

the conservative Republicans are in a quandary about their party’s nod to a quasi-liberal maverick, John McCain.

Effectively dismisses the rest of the Repulican base. Easy to tell where this is heading.

Each candidate is carefully pandering to a smorgasbord of special-interest groups, ranging from gay, lesbian and transgender people to children of illegal immigrants to working mothers to evangelical Christians.

So we have an issue with gays, women and surprisingly Christians.

There is one group no one has recognized, and it is the group that will decide the election: the Angry White Man. The Angry White Man comes from all economic backgrounds, from dirt-poor to filthy rich. He represents all geographic areas in America, from urban sophisticate to rural redneck, deep South to mountain West, left Coast to Eastern Seaboard.

Nice inclusionary statement unless you are gay, a women, black or an Evangelical Christian.

His common traits are that he isn’t looking for anything from anyone — just the promise to be able to make his own way on a level playing field. In many cases, he is an independent businessman and employs several people. He pays more than his share of taxes and works hard.

Sounds like he has the same goal as the special interest groups that he has a problem with. What's up with that.

The victimhood syndrome buzzwords — “disenfranchised,” “marginalized” and “voiceless” — don’t resonate with him. “Press ‘one’ for English” is a curse-word to him. He’s used to picking up the tab, whether it’s the company Christmas party, three sets of braces, three college educations or a beautiful wedding.

Really? Sure sounds like he feels like a victim to me and I know plenty of gays, women, christians that will pick up the tab. Gotta admit the Press 1 for English thing irritates me as well. See we do have common ground.

He believes the Constitution is to be interpreted literally, not as a “living document” open to the whims and vagaries of a panel of judges who have never worked an honest day in their lives.

That's an unsupported vague and frankly stupid position.

The Angry White Man owns firearms, and he’s willing to pick up a gun to defend his home and his country. He is willing to lay down his life to defend the freedom and safety of others, and the thought of killing someone who needs killing really doesn’t bother him.

Good for him. You are aware that since the time they were allowed to serve that blacks in this country have generally represented a larger percentage of the military compared to the percentage of the population that they represent. Maybe AWM should do his fair share.

The Angry White Man is not a metrosexual, a homosexual or a victim. Nobody like him drowned in Hurricane Katrina — he got his people together and got the hell out, then went back in to rescue those too helpless and stupid to help themselves, often as a police officer, a National Guard soldier or a volunteer firefighter.

So there are no metros or gays who got out? There are no metro or gay cops, soldiers, firefighters? Please, what friggin planet does AWM live on. He should get his head out of the sand or his a55 and get to know his neighbor better.

and he might have Cherokee, Mexican, or Puerto Rican mixed in, but he considers himself a white American.

I have no respect for those that want to deny their heritage. AWM can keep them.

He’s a man’s man, the kind of guy who likes to play poker, watch football, hunt white-tailed deer, call turkeys, play golf, spend a few bucks at a strip club once in a blue moon, change his own oil and build things. He coaches baseball, soccer and football teams and doesn’t ask for a penny. He’s the kind of guy who can put an addition on his house with a couple of friends, drill an oil well, weld a new bumper for his truck, design a factory and publish books. He can fill a train with 100,000 tons of coal and get it to the power plant on time so that you keep the lights on and never know what it took to flip that light switch.

So what? I know gays, blacks, women that do the same. AWM does not have a monopoly on it.

He knows that his wife is more emotional than rational, and he guides the family in a rational manner.

I'd like to see him say that when his wife is within earshot.

He’s not a racist, but he is annoyed and disappointed when people of certain backgrounds exhibit behavior that typifies the worst stereotypes of their race. He’s willing to give everybody a fair chance if they work hard, play by the rules and learn English.

Cetain backgrounds? Don't be a friggin wuss AWM. Say what you mean, I though you were a mans man? So translation, I have no issue with anyone as long as they act in a manner that AWM deems socially acceptable. Nice.

This is a disgusting very thinly veiled hate piece. It denigrates everyone except for maybe Ted Nugent.

Waste of bandwidth.

[Racerbvd]

Not me. I'm saying I got where I am without any of those programs. There is a difference. I couldn't get a PELL Grant or any of those loans, I got passed over for at least one governmental job promotion explicitly because I was a white male. I ended up leaving when I was flat out told that the gubmit agency I worked for was under a mandate to promote more women and "people of color".

That was me as well. back in the 60s, when women were treated as 2nd class citizens, my mother was the 1st female Fuller Brush salesman, late to become the 1st licensed female Mortgage Broker in the state of FL. a VP at a large, local mortgage company, one of the top private clubs invited her to join, when they found out this VP (her name is Laddie) was a woman, the "Good Ole Boys" refused to honor it. Now, we have been comped our membership(she still doesn't use it, I do use mine) because of our business. She taught me that no one can keep you down, she lived the part of being held back because she is a she and her resume is very impressive (she also raced SCCA in a 356 Speedster back in the 50s) and never did she let anyone hold her back, and that resume is laced with many 1st. So when some loser talks about life isn't fair, FUCH them, they aren't trying. As for hard working, my dentist, who also happens to be black has 2 offices, about 70 miles apart, that he goes to 6 days a week. He works mornings to early afternnon in a small town, then drives to the other office, opens mid afternoon until 10PM. The reason I started using him was the fact that he does the work in the evenings & weekends, doesn't take prime working time from me. I respect this man for more than one reason, one, as busy as he is, he still makes time to spend with his son, they play Father/Son basketball tournaments and have won state championships, he & I were both at UF around the same time, but until last summer, he drove the same Honda, that he had in college, when the engine started knocking (he had around 500K on it) and his wife (who for years had been wanting him to get rid of it) donated it to Salvation Army. We would talk cars, I remember when he had around 300K, he would talk about buying somthingf else, as these talks continued, I knew, he was just like me, he wanted to see how far that car would take him, and I told him, that he wouldn't part with it until it really broke, he laughed knowing I was right, and if his wife hadn't donated it (it needed a valve job) he would still be driving it today. His wife has 2 very nice new cars, they live in a very nice home in a great river front community, all paid for by hard work. So don't tell me anyone can really hold you back, as the only one who can is yourself!!!! My mother is proof, so was my father, and some of my best friends made it because they were willing to work that mach harder!!! My, I was the coke bottle glasses, uncordnated, average student, skinny runt, but because of how I was raised, I worked hard until I got what I wanted. The best thing to ever happen to me was not to be given anything. A week before my fathjer died, we were sitting on the boat drinking, and he was telling me about how proud he was of me (something he hadn't done much of) as when I started racing BMX, I was a runt, he wouldn't buy me a bike, I had to earn money & build my own, yet I mananged to become sponsored & nationaly ranked, I even went to Eruope on the USA team for this country's honor, in basketball, I was the short white kid with no shot, but I never gave up and always gave my all. The way he say it, I was the one with the least, and sure to fail, but because I just wouldn't give up (and he was sure that I would, and couldn't believe that I never did) I earned is respect, and there is nothing that means more to me than that day, at the club, on the boat,drinking Ashi, that he told me that, and how proud he was of me!! If I can do it, anyone can!!

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

This is a disgusting very thinly veiled hate piece. It denigrates everyone except for maybe Ted Nugent.

Waste of bandwidth.

Ummmm..................yes, yes it is.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Effectively dismisses the rest of the Repulican base. Easy to tell where this is heading.



So we have an issue with gays, women and surprisingly Christians.



Nice inclusionary statement unless you are gay, a women, black or an Evangelical Christian.



Sounds like he has the same goal as the special interest groups that he has a problem with. What's up with that.



Really? Sure sounds like he feels like a victim to me and I know plenty of gays, women, christians that will pick up the tab. Gotta admit the Press 1 for English thing irritates me as well. See we do have common ground.



That's an unsupported vague and frankly stupid position.



Good for him. You are aware that since the time they were allowed to serve that blacks in this country have generally represented a larger percentage of the military compared to the percentage of the population that they represent. Maybe AWM should do his fair share.



So there are no metros or gays who got out? There are no metro or gay cops, soldiers, firefighters? Please, what friggin planet does AWM live on. He should get his head out of the sand or his a55 and get to know his neighbor better.



I have no respect for those that want to deny their heritage. AWM can keep them.



So what? I know gays, blacks, women that do the same. AWM does not have a monopoly on it.



I'd like to see him say that when his wife is within earshot.



Cetain backgrounds? Don't be a friggin wuss AWM. Say what you mean, I though you were a mans man? So translation, I have no issue with anyone as long as they act in a manner that AWM deems socially acceptable. Nice.

This is a disgusting very thinly veiled hate piece. It denigrates everyone except for maybe Ted Nugent.

Waste of bandwidth.

Not always true. You see, it's already illegal to discriminate in a lot of ways. What this piece is saying is that a lot of these pro minority / special interest groups rally against things that are already illegal. They are there to create problems to re-issue solutions that are already there just for job security.

As a minority I f@#king hate hearing about Clinton / Dems sticking up for me - do I need special rights to make it in this world? Do I get my very own short bus since I'm brown?

I think this pretty much goes, no one really cares what you do, with whom you do it with, but please don't expect any more rights - as it sits, I'm not aware of any specific law banning Blacks, Pagans or Homosexuals from any basic public services or places, so the whole thing about oppression these days is in fact a fallacy. The government has done everything they can about it - the rest is human nature or intervention would borderline reverse racism.

We are in an era where we really can't be who we want to be - traditional values and personal initiative are definitely out of vogue. We cherish uniformity - not individuality. The Dems have a lock on social inequalities (perecieved) and have made a successful cash cow out of it. The "victims" don't care since personal responsibilty is no longer considered a basic trait of a decent citizen.

Blame the other guy and get paid.

As for being "socially acceptable"- you know, in my selfish world if someone wants something of myself, whether it's my business, my time or my attention, they had better damn well conform and respect my customs, my speech and my way of life if they expect something out of me. I also expect to see a certain amount of respect by following traditions that are normally set through the course of doing business. Be respectful.

I have no patience for anyone who expects me to bend to their substandard / nontraditonal or invented lingo /mannerisms under the guise that PC will force me to comply. Especially if I'm paying the tab / the taxes / offering the work.

PC will be the end of this country, it lowers the bar of excellence and rewards mediocrity and eliminates any useful standards.

rjp

[Hugh R]

Originally Posted by DARISC

So, if I understand correctly, you angry white men believe that black men born at the same time you were, into the same starting circumstances as yourselves, who worked every bit as hard and made as intelligent choices in their lives as you have, were on the same level playing field as you were, stood the same chance, without any help from any gov't. programs, of achieving the same degree of success in this country as you have?

DAR, to answer your direct question, NO. But that was in the 60's and 70's, at least in my time. NOW, yes, I believe that the playing field is level. On a more personal note, as I mentioned earlier, I have personally been denied opportunities because I was White when working in the pubic sector. Besides as others have said, I personally didn't do the discrimination, so I should be expected as a member of a race to atone for the sins of my forefathers? Meaning I should suffer financially because of some bad thing that some white guy may have done to some black guy 200/100/50/20 years ago. Heck, my parents came from Canada, I'm one of those first generation furigners you rail about. I had nothing to do with slavery and that stuff, why should I have any ownership of this issue?

[RANDY P]

When I sold furniture years ago, the City of Seattle used to send over these payment vouchers - where they would pay the bill for beds for certain welfare cases.

They used to MAKE me sign this stupid little form on the voucher and fax it back before I recieved the OK - it said:

"The City of Seattle does not support discrimination. By signing this form this Vendor agrees not to discriminate"

WTF, sellng a product for profit? How do discriminate if you are selling something for money? Even if there was a way to do it, is this form really useful for enforcing anti-discrimination laws? It's a prime example of how meaningless, ineffective and pointless and how simply stupid some people are to think that our government is really doing something useful.

I was disgusted that my city thinks their stupid little form is going to change anything.

rjp

Edit: I remember another time, I was discussing with a friend of a former GF who was notiorious for telling you everything she knows (we all know one ) and is so insanely liberal and PC she got so frustrated with me since I was against affirmative action she actually got to the point where she said

"SO, YOU ARE A RACIST THEN! IF YOU DON'T AGREE YOU MUST BE A RACIST!!'

My answer -

"OK, maybe I am. What exactly are you going to do about it?"

Funny, she couldn't quite come up with an answer to that one..


rjp

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by dd74

The angry white man better start taking matters into his own angry white-man hands. Because he's about to become a fossil.

Now, how can he prevent this? What should he do?

Mature ? Angry doesn't cut it. Sorry, it just doesn't cut it. Resentment doesn't cut it either.

Angry young Edison ? Angry young Einstien ? Was Teddy Roosevelt Angry when he spoke softly but carried a big stick ?

Turning to the dark side we are.

[hytem]

The angry white male votes Republican these days, as if it made a difference. It doesn't.

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by nostatic

If you want to talk about divisive cultural wars, take a look at pieces like the one that started this thread. "Angry White Man."
.........................
How we move forward is indeed the $64 question. But whiners that spray the "angry white man" drivel are in fact perpetuating the problem imho. *That* is an opinion, and you're free to disagree with it

I completely agree with those statements. Let me just say I can't stand diatribes such as that in the initial post - even the non racist ones like the John Cleese thread. My inbox gets clogged with stupid stuff like that all the time. It gets tossed unread. Speaking of which, I lost interest in the opening quoted rant about 2 sentences in. I read more via Stomachemonkee's dissection which, for the most part, I agree with. It wasn't until I read your statement that this first became interesting.

We even agree that there is a problem that still needs to be addressed. The difference is how we deal with that problem. You choose, it seems, to look back, analyze, isolate the problem (which I see as place blame), and improve/change. Not a bad way to solve problems usually. However, I think this issue has been mired in analysis, hindsight and blame. Imo, we need to stop the analysis etc. and get on with life.

The initial quoted post plays to the emotions of any white guy who has been on the receiving end of "equal rights". "Equal" today refers to numbers, not fairness. A qualified white guy will often be passed over for promotion because it was given to a less qualified "minority". That is not right. Overall, it creates more problems than it solves. First, it creates animosity - the sort that generates those stupid diatribes. Second, it brings our society, as a whole, down. Instead of rewarding excellence, it straps a handicap weight on performance. Third, and worst of all, it is racist. It suggests that those who are not white males are inferior and therefore need the "boost".

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

AP - Here's Todd's statement. It was in response to sammy's post. Show me some fact. This is pure opinion.

"You can deny the blame, but it's your legacy. Just as it helped you to get where you are, it is also your albatross. Payback is a beotch...welcome to the new world order."

There may be an opinion about payback there, but the rest is fact. How about this statement? Think it's only opinion too? And the AWM doesn't realize the privileged position he has held in this society for the past 200+ years. Or maybe he does, and doesn't want to relinquish it. Can't blame him...

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

The ironic thing is, the whiners that spray this kind of drivel are the very ones who are perpetuating the problem.

Nice denigration of anyone who has a different opinion than you.

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

They dwell on blame and payback - living in the past. We need to move forward and put racism and inequality behind us.

Except if your family is the one that got screwed (and may still be getting the short end of the stick).

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

Driving a wedge between cultures with divisive opinions serves no useful purpose and does more harm than good.

Nice self-serving statement. "If you say anything we don't like, you will make it worse than it is.."

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

As far as your link - I read it. Can you go to China today, buy land, and be treated as an equal with no animosity? The answer is "No.". My point - again - is that kind of behavior is not unique to whites. My reference to other cultures, times, and lands was merely a comparison. What don't you get?

Once again this thread is about America not some other country. America - you know the supposedly "give me your poor....", blind-justice, equal-opportunity-for-all place. None of those other countries claim equality.

As to why to look back. How about the classic cliche "history always repeats itself"? We should learn from our mistakes not just forge ahead and hope it gets better.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

DAR, to answer your direct question, NO. But that was in the 60's and 70's, at least in my time.

I see it as a plus that you acknowledge that.

NOW, yes, I believe that the playing field is level.

While progress has been made since the 70's, the playing field is still far from level. Ask any successful black men you might know.

On a more personal note, as I mentioned earlier, I have personally been denied opportunities because I was White when working in the pubic sector.

Hell hath no fury like a white man discriminated against. Makes him very angry. Yet most often does not open his eyes, mind or heart to what black males have been and, admit it or not, to a lesser degree than in the past, are still subjected to. Anger (and fear) can cloud one's vision and thinking.

Besides as others have said, I personally didn't do the discrimination, so I should be expected as a member of a race to atone for the sins of my forefathers? Meaning I should suffer financially because of some bad thing that some white guy may have done to some black guy 200/100/50/20 years ago. Heck, my parents came from Canada, I'm one of those first generation furigners you rail about. I had nothing to do with slavery and that stuff, why should I have any ownership of this issue?

Several others here and I have adressed this. Read Todd's posts - they adress the remainder of your post with logic and clarity.

..

[SLO-BOB]

AP - nice play on words, but you need to read the definition on "fact". I have no idea how to explain something so basic. It's like trying to describe the color blue to a blind man.

Every point you've made against me I could use on you. Text book ultra liberal response to something you don't want to hear. Your the other side of the coin to waving the flag to justify anything that the far right is so fond of. I'm assuming your white because I have never heard a non white whine so heavily about this topic (it's called pride - see Randy P's post). Furthermore, your innability to understand the concept of comparisons is a problem you'll need to address on your own. It's getting a little tired.

On second thought Peter, I agree. We're the worst. Seeing as this is weighing so heavily on your conscience, and you have all the facts, I suggest you spearhead the campaign to right these wrongs. I think a good start would be to return your house and property to it's rightful owners - the native Americans. You can empty your bank account and pay reparations to African Americans while your at it because maybe your relatives owned a slave, maybe not, but either way it's your fault because of the color of your skin. I also suggest that you boycott many commercial products (you'll have to get the list on your own) that arrive to your region by train - can't have the blood-guilt of the Chinese on your hands. Finally, quit your job. Tell your boss you are undeserving and you need to be replaced by a minority, regardless of qualifications.

[SLO-BOB]

Dar - "Hell hath no fury like a white man discriminated against. Makes him very angry. Yet most often does not open his eyes, mind or heart to what black males have been and, admit it or not, to a lesser degree than in the past, are still subjected to. Anger (and fear) can cloud one's vision and thinking."

Wow Dr Phil - that's deep.

This somehow makes reverse discrimination okay? You and Peter are a trip. You guys can go ahead and wring your hands fretting over something you have not even the smallest intention of addressing, let alone solving. The rest of us will move forward into a better, more enlightened world unencumbered by blame.