Anyone using the Knee Defender?

[jyl]

The discussion in this thread doesn't apply to business/first class, where you almost always fly.

Originally Posted by cairns

Absolute BS.
I'm a very frequent flyer and I will recline when I want to. You paid for the full motion of the seat and you shouldn't feel bad about using it. But you can be courteous about it.

Flying coach is usually dirt cheap and you get what you pay for. You paid $600 for a ticket to London or $200 to get to Orlando and you're going to b*tch about someone reclining their seat? Or someone using the back of your seat to move around?

You want more room and comfort pay for it and quit whining. And if you're that frequent a flyer you're rarely, if ever, sitting in coach.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

What airline do you fly? Because all the planes I've been on the seats go back maybe 2 inches. Your kidding yourself if you think I'm anywhere close to your crotch at that point.

This!^^^ I generally try to sleep when I fly and always recline... and usually so does the person in front of me.

If you don't want the person if front of you getting "in your space" fly first class, or a better grade airline that has larger seats... or Aligiant that doesn't have reclining seats.

Let me add I flew a couple time a month for several years so I guess I would consider myself a frequent flyer for those years... I also discovered JetBlue has the most legroom of the el cheapo airlines (Aligiant the least).

And yes I am guilty of dragging on a (small) carry on... if I am just traveling for the weekend I see no need to hassle baggage claim (or the chance of the airline losing my bag)... what I don't understand is how some people get onto the plane with those huge duffle bags.

[JavaBrewer]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

How many of you insist on bringing a carry on instead of checking baggage?


I hate all of you. I want to see everyone with an actual carry on (not a purse, not a backpack, one of those born from hell luggage pieces) stowed with their bags in the cargo hold, so that I can get on and off the plane like a normal civilized human being. You clog the waiting area, you clog the plane, you clog the terminal, screw you.

Haha that's me dude! I have not checked a bag since the 80's. I have done 3 week business trips out of a single roller bag. Hint - most countries have laundry available My latest roller is the 4 wheel job that can roll upright and swivel. Fits calmly into all overhead compartments. Genius!

After a long week of business trips the last place I want to be is baggage claim.

Oh, and if I am in coach I never recline my seat unless the seat behind is vacant.

[island911]

Originally Posted by jyl

I don't recline. It is inconsiderate.

Shouldn't have to think about that but such is deregulated air travel.

But locking the recline function IS considerate?

And what does the recline function have to do with deregulated air travel? I don't remember seats being regulated into their upright and locked position before deregulation. But then again, I was really young back then. Remember smoking sections? --now THAT was inconsiderate.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by island911

But locking the recline function IS considerate?

And what does the recline function have to do with deregulated air travel? I don't remember seats being regulated into their upright and locked position before deregulation. But then again, I was really young back then. Remember smoking sections? --now THAT was inconsiderate.

Who said locking the recline function was considerate? I didn't.

Deregulation of domestic air travel created a race to the bottom in fares, more competition, less profit. The "good" is that domestic air travel has become very cheap and accessible to almost everyone. The "bad" is that domestic air travel has become inconvenient and uncomfortable, and the US airline industry has become overall unprofitable. Decreasing seat pitch is part of the increasing discomfort, and recline is an issue at small seat pitch.

[speeder]

Domestic air travel became cheap for a while but fares have increased dramatically along with fewer amenities and lots of extra fees for checked bags, etc. I used to be the king of the last minute, one-way flight to buy a car or take an unplanned trip, not anymore. Those fares have doubled and tripled in the last couple years as airlines are becoming profitable again.

[Rodsrsr]

The guy behind me can kiss my azz. I could give a crap about how uncomfortable it is for him to use his laptop. Guess what... Its a plane not a work station. What if some really small person locked your seat in the "recline" position in order to bring the tray closer to him intentionally. You have no right to touch the seat that I paid for and if someone has the balls to do that to me they better be ready to have a really ugly situation on their hands.

[gordner]

Discriminating against tall people, because the airlines should suck it up and accommodate that tiny portion of the population at their own expense be removing rows...oh yes for sure that makes sense. people are fat too, maybe we should make all the seats double wide, so that is a 100 percent increase in fairs for all to accommodate the fat guys, say 10 percent to accommodate the tall folks...but wait, there may be short people out there who feel discriminated against because these big seats make them feel belittled and diminutive....
All a lot of entitlement. If you don't fit the average mold, then you won't fit the average seating arrangement as well as someone who does. Not so hard to figure out, and the world does not owe you anything.
A reclining seat has little to know impact to leg room, it moves like an eighth of an inch back at knee height at most...sure it crowds the person behind you, to some degree, but it is a bonus when your seat is forward, it is ridiculous to think you can be entitled to that space, the guy in front has a right to recline he paid for it! Upgrade or travel some other way, it is stunning the things people find time to whine about...

[JavaBrewer]

Many years ago, pre 9-11, the RT ticket from SAN to IAD was ~ $2K on AA or United. Since then I have paid as little as $395 and as much as $850 for the same journey. I'm sure the variables are all over the place but I wonder what the Airline needs to make per seat be profitable?
Rodsrsr - I know you're just being hypothetical but anyone creating/participating in an on board "ugly" situation will likely be arrested and if possible bum rushed off the plane by unfriendly folks in uniform. There are lots of road warriors out there who indeed need to work while in transit.

[cairns]

The discussion in this thread doesn't apply to business/first class, where you almost always fly.

Actually I've been on Southwest a lot lately. Most excellent airline. I think people who get on Southwest know what to expect and I've never seen any battles over reclining seats.

[polo classic]

There's certainly a lot of me, me, me, me here....

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by gordner

A reclining seat has little to know impact to leg room, it moves like an eighth of an inch back at knee height at most...sure it crowds the person behind you, to some degree, but it is a bonus when your seat is forward, it is ridiculous to think you can be entitled to that space, the guy in front has a right to recline he paid for it! Upgrade or travel some other way, it is stunning the things people find time to whine about...

This! First world problem. The person in front of me on the airline reclined a fraction of am inch into my space! Wah!

[Rodsrsr]

Like I said, I could give a sheet about the persons comfort level behind me. (within reason) not for some douche who wants to use his laptop. The video ad even portrayed the person installing the device as being able to use the extra space and even recline their seat on top of it. So they get to recline their seat while blocking yours? Solution. Upgrade to first class or change airlines. Cairns is correct because the cost of ones ticket will be in direct correlation to ones level of comfort and or amenities.

[widgeon13]

This thing has been around for quite a few years not sure what the big deal is.

[BlueTone]

Originally Posted by gordner

Discriminating against tall people, because the airlines should suck it up and accommodate that tiny portion of the population at their own expense be removing rows...oh yes for sure that makes sense. people are fat too, maybe we should make all the seats double wide, so that is a 100 percent increase in fairs for all to accommodate the fat guys, say 10 percent to accommodate the tall folks...but wait, there may be short people out there who feel discriminated against because these big seats make them feel belittled and diminutive....
All a lot of entitlement. If you don't fit the average mold, then you won't fit the average seating arrangement as well as someone who does. Not so hard to figure out, and the world does not owe you anything.
A reclining seat has little to know impact to leg room, it moves like an eighth of an inch back at knee height at most...sure it crowds the person behind you, to some degree, but it is a bonus when your seat is forward, it is ridiculous to think you can be entitled to that space, the guy in front has a right to recline he paid for it! Upgrade or travel some other way, it is stunning the things people find time to whine about...

If you are directing this at me, re-read what I said. The pilot behind me made the comment about discrimination. I said that I choose flights based on seat availability.

[island911]

Originally Posted by jyl

Who said locking the recline function was considerate? I didn't.

Deregulation of domestic air travel created a race to the bottom in fares, more competition, less profit. The "good" is that domestic air travel has become very cheap and accessible to almost everyone. The "bad" is that domestic air travel has become inconvenient and uncomfortable, and the US airline industry has become overall unprofitable. Decreasing seat pitch is part of the increasing discomfort, and recline is an issue at small seat pitch.

Of course you didn't explicitly say locking the recline function is considerate but on this polar issue, choosing to label the act of reclining ones seatback as inconsiderate, has the subtext of saying that locking another's seatback is quite justified - force consideration on others.

Deregulation and leg room. Sorry, but deregulation did not take away legroom. Legroom, in airplanes, has always been a premium concern/balance. AS it is now you can buy extra legroom. I think I paid $20 for an extra few inches on Jet Blue a while back. Funny thing on those flights, the cheap seats were packed. I got the extra leg room AND the whole row to myself. ...as did the few others who paid the extra $20. The cabin contrast was striking. The consumers DO tell the airlines what balance they want. And, considering the minuscule profitability of airlines (as an industry) ... well, during the regulated (fairs) days, airlines were still packing them in.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by island911

Of course you didn't explicitly say locking the recline function is considerate but on this polar issue, choosing to label the act of reclining ones seatback as inconsiderate, has the subtext of saying that locking another's seatback is quite justified - force consideration on others.

Deregulation and leg room. Sorry, but deregulation did not take away legroom. Legroom, in airplanes, has always been a premium concern/balance. AS it is now you can buy extra legroom. I think I paid $20 for an extra few inches on Jet Blue a while back. Funny thing on those flights, the cheap seats were packed. I got the extra leg room AND the whole row to myself. ...as did the few others who paid the extra $20. The cabin contrast was striking. The consumers DO tell the airlines what balance they want. And, considering the minuscule profitability of airlines (as an industry) ... well, during the regulated (fairs) days, airlines were still packing them in.

Correct - you are paying for space. Wanting more space = pay more. There is a limit on weight/space for the aircraft.

[jyl]

Seat pitch was typically 40 inches in the 1940s-1950s. In the mid 1970s, typical was 34-36 inches. In the late 1980s, typically 32-33 inches. Currently typical is 30-32 inches, this is in standard coach.

Flying Across America - Daniel L. Rust - Google Books

[Typ616]

That covers seats. What is the consensus on windows then ? I've spent many X-country day flights in the dark lately, as most window seat passengers would close it permanently and we'd be in the dark for the whole trip. Is that a new trend? My kid was a bit disappointed not to see outside on occasion, but I could have booked him the window seat so no complaints, I know how to fix it... I'm just curious... Who owns the window per the above etiquette ? (If it's the window seat only, can I refuse them access to the aisle then? ;-) kidding...

All in all, I think it's cultural, people are simply more rude nowadays (often without realizing it) than in the past, cheap flights also inevitably increase no-class behaviors. Recently I has a guy deploy a laptop the size of 2 tray tables, 30% over my area, and then later disgruntedly slap a privacy filter because he was afraid I'd be spying on the screen he laid right in front of my face...amusing... I hate flying now.

[island911]

Originally Posted by jyl

Seat pitch was typically 40 inches in the 1940s-1950s. In the mid 1970s, typical was 34-36 inches. In the late 1980s, typically 32-33 inches. Currently typical is 30-32 inches, this is in standard coach.

Flying Across America - Daniel L. Rust - Google Books

Again, this has nothing to do with deregulation. Seat design has moved away from the over-stuffed look of the 80's to that of Reccaro's with USB tech.

As such, Seat pitch =/= legroom. If all seats were the same construction, then pitch would = legroom. (seats used to use much of that pitch.)