How important is church? Need your advice

[ckelly78z]

Maybe I don't understand the "LA SoCal housing is on fire" bit as much as I should being from the midwest. In my area, no one would ever expect to arrange a Sunday morning meeting, that would be about like calling after midnight for something business related....it just isn't done. I applaud thier choice to make church a priority, because it gives them the right attitude to start the week and deal with the craziness of LA.

Quite frankly, they would be better off with a different contractor who understands thier needs and wants. And the comment about making the bid at 200%....well that just confirms it.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I understand that you are very good...so that probably allows you to be a bit less flexible with your customers, but you must understand that many have very little flexibility in our schedules.

From my experience with look 171, I think you have it all wrong here, fint. Let me tell you why:
- He took on our project in southern Orange County, even though he lives and usually works in LA (> 60 miles away) and the traffic here and back makes DC look like a ghost town
- He's managed to work with us, even though we're on the East Coast 99% of the time
- He's worked with our travel schedule to SoCal (face-to-face meetings only during limited windows of time)
- He uses every means of communicating that he can to advise, inform, recommend, etc.
- He's managed to way exceed our expectations.

The question/issue raised by look 171 is not one of blame for either party. It's a genuine question as to whether it's common for church-going people to eschew other activities (in this case, an important meeting with the contractor on their (the couple wanting the work done) only common day off from work). He didn't realize the strength of their commitment to church activities. He also knew that between their work schedules and church activities, they would not be able to provide the customer-side of the interaction necessary to make the project a success. And I can tell you, he's all about making the project a success.

[turbo owner]

My experience with people of faith, they are judgemental and hypocrites, they look down on non believers and are intolerant of other religions.

If you have plenty of work, steer clear, it will save you problems down the road.

[Bugsinrugs]

Originally Posted by ckelly78z

Maybe I don't understand the "LA SoCal housing is on fire" bit as much as I should being from the midwest. In my area, no one would ever expect to arrange a Sunday morning meeting, that would be about like calling after midnight for something business related....it just isn't done. I applaud thier choice to make church a priority, because it gives them the right attitude to start the week and deal with the craziness of LA.

Quite frankly, they would be better off with a different contractor who understands thier needs and wants. And the comment about making the bid at 200%....well that just confirms it.

I don't believe Mr. Look made the 200% comment.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by winders

This is crazy. Inability to be flexible with their leisure time? Who cares why they are busy on a certain day of the week until 2PM. They are. That doesn't make them inflexible or problematic. They just happen to have a standing commitment on Sunday and aren't available until 2PM. If you can't deal with that, you are the one with the problem. You don't need to understand anything about the "church thing".

Issues later because they are like what now? Have a commitment? Wow.....

P.S. I don't go to church so don't go there.....

x2

the other stereotypical contractor thing to do is to act like you are the customer and behave as if your schedule is the one that needs to be adjusted to.

[GH85Carrera]

I know many people that consider their church time as more important to them as their jobs. My MIL has gone to the same church for 70 years. She has friends there that she has known virtually all of her life. It is very important to her.

You can be sure there are contractors there at church with the people you were dealing with.

You don't need that one job, move on. Just tell them you are just too busy to work their job into your schedule. No harm no foul.

[javadog]

In the commercial construction world, all meetings take place during normal business hours. I don't know why residential work needs to be any different. Expecting you to meet them after hours is inconsiderate on their part. I don't really care what sort of lifestyle commitments they have, you operate a business. It's their responsibility to rearrange their schedules, not your responsibility to change your business hours.

Sometimes the public thinks so little of residential contractors that they take it for granted that the contractor needs to do anything asked of them to secure a job. I say they need to learn a life lesson about priorities.

JR

[fintstone]

Because in the commercial construction world, both parties are generally at work when they do business with each other, in the residential construction world, one in at work and the other has to not be at work...so there is an inherent natural conflict. In my experience, at least for "sales" and "meetings"...the businessman adjusts their schedule if at all possible. Of course, I have never lived where a contractor was not scrambling for more business. Like almost everything else...things are likely different in CA.

[javadog]

I find I have to adjust my personal schedule to fit all sorts of things into it. Doctor appointments, taking a car into a shop to be worked on, etc. It's not rocket science.

JR

[berettafan]

I think when you go from working under someone else to doing it yourself a lesson about how hard the boss worked to make it rain day after day is quickly learned.

[M.D. Holloway]

Religion is the most powerful force...above sex and food. Folks will do anything (and have) according to their religious beliefs. Church is merely a manifestation.

Interesting question though, what if the young couple said "Sunday morning won't work for us. We have a long love making session we look forward to. We could meet after 2PM if that works?"

I would let them slide...so to speak.

[MBAtarga]

Originally Posted by turbo owner

My experience with people of faith, they are judgemental and hypocrites, they look down on non believers and are intolerant of other religions.

If you have plenty of work, steer clear, it will save you problems down the road.

My experience with people whom don't have faith, are judgmental and hypocritical of those who do, and look down on the faithful and are intolerant of all religions.

[jyl]

Some people are very involved with their church, and have roles during the services, whether it be greeter, chorus, passing the donation basket, etc. There is always some flexibility, if a person is sick or has an important conflict or emergency, someone else steps in. Even the priest can get a stand-in if necessary. They didn't consider the meeting with you to be important enough to make those arrangements. Since you and they will presumably need to meet with them multiple times during the two months of the job, this will be a recurrent issue. Therefore, good call to not take the job. I would tell them the time frame for the job is very short, your schedule and their schedule are both very full, so scheduling meetings and getting the job done on time will be too difficult.

[Jim Richards]

^^^John nailed it.

[MBAtarga]

Similar to others opinions, church has nothing to do with it.

You and your potential client may have scheduling difficulties. Both parties need to be able to work around commitments or you'll run into problems.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by look 171

Mr. Dudley,

That's the stuff I am looking for. I am really trying to understand due to their tight schedule and their priorities. I have given up time with my kids to meet with clients and I am perfectly OK with that and have done it many times. Thanks to you, I learn something new. Never knew about the whole coffee, greeter thing and the commitment to church. Now I know. Remember, you are talking to a guy who's never stepped one foot in a church parking lot and know nothing about why they do what they do.

BTW, I am not offended, but I see some impossibility to only have a 4 hour window weekly to meet, discuss and make decisions on a pretty complex project that needed to be completed in 2 months. They made it clear that's their only time to meet for the week.

Church time for many is not a leisurely activity - many churches have outreach activities with homeless shelters, youth programs, nursing homes, and the like. Perhas your customer down-played what they are involved in at church so they don't come across as holier than thou, or having a pompous attitude. .. or maybe their involvement which church is purely social and they don't have the right mindset to get the work done... Either way, unless you know the motivation of their hearts, it's a judgement call. And I'm pretty sure none of us here know the motivation of their hearts...

I go to church - sometimes I skip a Sunday service, and I am not as involved as I can be in my church's outreach programs due to various excuses I can come up with. But church is an integral part of my life - not because I want to have a holider than thou attitude or earn my way into heaven -- but because I seek to learn more about God and what His plan is for the world, and how I fit into that plan.

But let me get off my soapbox...

As you stated, they haven't bought a home before, so they likely don't fully understand the timeframes and deadlines involved. It sounds to me like you have experience in this, and do quality work based on feedback others have given here - perhaps they just need a little direction from you about such projects.

Question: were you available to meet with them at 2 on Sunday? If not, maybe there is a mutual time where you can agree upon that is an ideal time and location? Whether they had legitimate reasons for not being able to meet with you, or they just blew you off -- I think it may be worth your time to give them a second chance -- at a time that works for all parties involved. If they give you problems for this meeting, then you can move on - knowing you put in the extra effort to help them, but without putting in so much time and effort that it cost you.

My $0.42,
-Z-man.

[dennis in se pa]

If these people are a PITA BEFORE you take the job - just imagine what it will be like afterwards if you get the job.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by javadog

I find I have to adjust my personal schedule to fit all sorts of things into it. Doctor appointments, taking a car into a shop to be worked on, etc. It's not rocket science.

JR

It must be nice that you can. Many folks have great difficulty taking time off from work to do these things.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

^^^John nailed it.

I disagree. I know plenty of religious folks who would consider missing church to plan a remodel to be a terrible thing to do and would not consider it. It is not the least bit flexible (services are exactly when they are)...and I find it hard to believe that a priest would miss church on Sunday to arrange his bathroom remodel. It would have never flown in the church I attended.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by fintstone

It must be nice that you can. Many folks have great difficulty taking time off from work to do these things.

Flex time, vacation time, etc. Everybody has it.

Originally Posted by fintstone

I disagree. I know plenty of religious folks who would consider missing church to plan a remodel to be a terrible thing to do and would not consider it. It is not the least bit flexible (services are exactly when they are.

Every church I've ever run across has services on more than one day a week, and usually at multiple times on Sunday. Seems to me the idea is to allow people to attend when it meets their personal schedules best. I can't say I have a single friend that attends church, that goes to every service offered each week.

JR