The affordable 997 thread

[stealthn]

Who wouldn't like a 997 for low dollars? I'm always looking for a reasonably priced launch edition S until I can get a GT3 for the price I want

[onewhippedpuppy]

Quote

good used engine

Isnt that the issue? Since the engine has as design flaw there really are no 'good' engines. Ff you mean one that doesnt need regular IMS bearing replacement you are out of luck.

The failure rate of the later cars is very low. So much so that they were excluded from the class action suit.

[speeder]

Quote

Quote

good used engine

Isnt that the issue? Since the engine has as design flaw there really are no 'good' engines. Ff you mean one that doesnt need regular IMS bearing replacement you are out of luck.

The failure rate of the later cars is very low. So much so that they were excluded from the class action suit.

Which are you referring to as "later cars"? Thx

[onewhippedpuppy]

The early 2005s were included in the lawsuit. Yes I know you have a friend that has experienced a failure in a later car, but one data point does not a sample size make. There weren't enough failures for the lawyers to include them in their lawsuit. Polls on Rennlist reflect this as well.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Comparing apples to apples, a good DIY mechanic could rebuild a good M96 core for the same or less. Or just swap in a good used engine for $10k or so.

Apples to apples, you must mean M97 as well as M96 here... An aircooled engine in need of refurbishing to the tune mentioned above has likely done 100-200K miles or more. That's not the same apple as a 30K-miles (or whatever) 997 engine that just grenaded itself due to a defective bearing. Pre-emptively splitting a seemingly healthy M97 case is not financially comparable to any past aircooled defects. Swapping a "good" used engine simply resets the doomsday clock because unless it's an early design, they have the exact same issue of not having a replaceable bearing (unless you tear it down, $$$), see examples above of repeat failures.
Anyway, we're just going in circles... The facts are on the table and everybody gets to pick what they are comfortable with. Early 997 = easily upgraded bearing but hard to identify conclusively. Later M97 Gen I = take your chances (odds *are* good, but if it happens to you, it will sting to the tune of $20K+ realistically, and no guarantee it won't happen again). Gen 2 = no issues so far, but substantially rarer and more expensive.

It's kind of ironic that the red-headed step child (996) is becoming desirable again because it can be upgraded (bearing wise). But I still dislike the interior/exterior look, so the wait for 09s continues.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Actually the standard 997 had an M96 until they went to the 9A1 in the 997.2. The M97 was in the 987 and 997S. They are supposedly very similar internally including the improved IMS bearing design. The 9A1 has no IMS bearing to fail, but I believe it does have some issues with carbon build up in the DFI motors.

Here are engine models vs Porsche models, look at page 9 for the M96 in the 997.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/93289189/Porsche_Engine_Codes_1952-2012.pdf

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Actually the 997 had an M96 until they went to the 9A1 in the 997.2. The M97 was in the 987.

Did not know that... Agreed on DFI, jury's still out, but it sounds more promising ;-)

[onewhippedpuppy]

Quote de onewhippedpuppy

Actually the 997 had an M96 until they went to the 9A1 in the 997.2. The M97 was in the 987.

Did not know that... Agreed on DFI, jury's still out, but it sounds more promising ;-)

I just edited my post to clarify, the M96 was in the base 997.

[Deschodt]

Ah ok...Thx for clarifying, because I'd seen M97 #s in pictures on other threads so I was wondering.
AFAIK (lifted from another thread on Rennlist) :
"The M96 engine was in production between the years 1998 and 2008 and was used in base 997 (starting in 2005)
The M97 engine was in production between the years 2005 and 2008 and was used in S 997s only (just talking about 997 here)"

But if they are *all* M96s on the base 997, why then are some early ones upgradeable and later ones not, are there 2 versions of M96s then? (one with a bigger hole to reach out and extract the bearing? or is it the bearing itself that is less extractable?). What's the difference if they are the same case?

Go figure... this is giving me a headache. Ironically, the Brit mags are reporting a higher prevalence of bearing issues with S models than base (so M97 - again that goes against logic as you'd think the later engine would be better).

Another though: does anybody know of a good aftermarket insurance that covers grenading engines due to Intermediary shaft bearings (with a proven record?). Because at the end of the day, that might resolve the issue - pick up a much cheaper Gen I, add $3K of peace of mind for 3 years (by which time I have confidence LN or whoever will have a plan B)...

[onewhippedpuppy]

From what I've read the IMS bearing design is very similar between the late 2005 and on M96 and the M97 engines. I've never had one apart so I have no personal experience either way.

[speeder]

I just can't believe that Porsche sold an expensive German car for so many years with a proven, identifiable major design flaw that makes them all a ticking time bomb no matter how well you maintain them. I can't think of ANY other vehicle with a similar issue, other than the early Ford 6.0 Powerstroke diesel.

As to the actual numbers and likelihood, my non scientific sampling says it happens a lot.

[speeder]

I also think that my focus has switched to base model early 997s. They will prob get to be the more expensive used cars once people find out it's a better car.

[1990C4S]

Less IMS chatter , more cheap cars please.

Actually it's nice to see some factual info on this issue. Without any drama.

[VincentVega]

Actually it's nice to see some factual info on this issue. Without any drama.

No kidding, good thread. If you can stomach the potential issues there are deals to be had.

[Steve Carlton]

So an early 2005 997S cannot get the ISB update without splitting the case, only the base 997?

What's also amazing to me is that Porsche can't tell you which case the engine has provided the VIN. You've got to dive in with an approximate $2,500 budget and an unwilling-to-cooperate speeder just to find out if you even can replace the bearing in a moderately painful way vs the totally impractical way.

[aigel]

This thread turned me off to 997 base models.

Maybe I will make a good buck some time and get a GT3 or TT. Unfortunately, with others having the same base model turn off, I am certain the values will stay up or rise. I think the push from the air cooled cars is making it into the waterpumpers and people are looking for the best ones to jump on.

G

[BReif61]

Originally Posted by speeder

I can't think of ANY other vehicle with a similar issue, other than the early Ford 6.0 Powerstroke diesel.

Any Mitsubishi car with the 4G63 engine prior to MY95 or so. The infamous "crankwalk" engine which has been similarly demonized by the internet for being a time bomb. And much like the M9x engines, the failure rate is MUCH lower than the internet would have you believe.

[BReif61]

Originally Posted by aigel

This thread turned me off to 997 base models.

Maybe I will make a good buck some time and get a GT3 or TT. Unfortunately, with others having the same base model turn off, I am certain the values will stay up or rise. I think the push from the air cooled cars is making it into the waterpumpers and people are looking for the best ones to jump on.

G

Me too. The last manual GT3s, the last manual Turbos, the last of the Mezger engines... I'll be surprised if they ever drop in price.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Quote de speeder

I can't think of ANY other vehicle with a similar issue, other than the early Ford 6.0 Powerstroke diesel.

Any Mitsubishi car with the 4G63 engine prior to MY95 or so. The infamous "crankwalk" engine which has been similarly demonized by the internet for being a time bomb. And much like the M9x engines, the failure rate is MUCH lower than the internet would have you believe.

1990s BMW M60 V8 with Nikasil cylinder walls. Our higher sulfur content gas would literally eat the cylinder walls until they no longer made compression.

[cheeze]

It seems like 997 base prices are coming within $7K of 987 prices as that market seems to be heating up.