Ali is on life support

[JD159]

Originally Posted by fintstone

This thread does not need your opinion of whether or not my opinion is valid either...but you chose to post it. As far as Trump and political views, I did not introduce that, so leave me out of your remarks. This is not the appropriate place to discuss those.

I didn't introduce an opinion regarding your opinions validity, just it's place in this thread.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by JD159

Seriously. This is the god damn internet. Chill out.

[sand_man]

Dang Baz, you win the whole Internet with that one


I seriously can't stop laughing at that gif

[Rodsrsr]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I think you would have been correct in the late 50's and early 60's...but, by Jan '67 that was long gone. Clay was already rich and famous and lived quite well. No one asked him to kill innocent people. In fact, no one asked any more of him than any other American who served....white, black, Hispanic, Asian, native American, etc. Most did not want to go either...but, they did.

Saying that racism was long gone in 1967 is not only factually incorrect, its flat out crazy. Martin Luther King was assassinated in 68. No sane Black person would ever make such a statement. The United States was extremely segregated and incredibly racist during that time. This was partly why Ali did not want to serve in the war. He felt he would be killing innocent Vietnamese people only to return home to see himself and others of his ethnicity being treated as second class citizens. Last in line in the states but the front of the line in the battlefield, was an old saying you probably never heard....

[DaveE]

I'll take Ali's bravery in standing up to the war over Trump, Limbaugh, Cheney and W's sniveling cowardly way out any time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Rodsrsr

Saying that racism was long gone in 1967 is not only factually incorrect, its flat out crazy. Martin Luther King was assassinated in 68. No sane Black person would ever make such a statement. The United States was extremely segregated and incredibly racist during that time. This was partly why Ali did not want to serve in the war. He felt he would be killing innocent Vietnamese people only to return home to see himself and others of his ethnicity being treated as second class citizens. Last in line in the states but the front of the line in the battlefield, was an old saying you probably never heard....

I did not state that racism was long gone in 1967. I disagreed that Clay would have had to drink from a separate water fountain in 1967. People will always be racist, even today (folks of all races...just like then). Great athletes of color were treated very well in the US and around the world then...much as now. Robert Kennedy was assassinated in '68 and John Lennon in 1980. That didn't effect water fountains either.

He just spun the story that he thought put him in the best light.

Blacks served and died at about the same rate as their percentage of the population. Over 80% who served and died were Caucasian. Only about 30% of those who died were draftees. Many folks volunteered.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by DaveE

I'll take Ali's bravery in standing up to the war over Trump, Limbaugh, Cheney and W's sniveling cowardly way out any time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LOL. Another Political post in OT and another rewrite of history.

Ali didn't stand up to the war. He just refused to go himself. He really did not seem to have any problem with anyone else getting killed there...or any quarrel with the war or killing Asians until they lowered the IQ requirements in 1966 and his 78 IQ which had kept him deferred suddenly made him eligible for the draft.

Lots of folks had medical or educational deferments (including Ali). It seems you prefer the cowardly lawbreakers to those that were judged physically incapable and could not serve.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by DaveE

Ali's bravery in standing up to the war

Clay's "bravery in standing up to war" is akin to a bank robber's bravery in standing up against poverty! He refused to go because he didn't want to get killed. It was a calculated move.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Clay's "bravery in standing up to war" is akin to a bank robber's bravery in standing up against poverty! He refused to go because he didn't want to get killed. It was a calculated move.

He was offered a pretty cushy situation. He was not afraid of catching a lead slug in the head because there was no risk of that. None. Exhibition boxing.

He had his reasons. Me thinks, peer pressure/input from religious affiliates must have been massive.

The Cassius Clay name use vs Muhammed Ali is childish. He was Grady Clay's cousin, FWIW. Word to your Mother, as Vanilla Ice would say. If you were "colored" you would know the expression is Word to the Mother. Quay turned me onto that. He is colored but not a boxer.

Herbert B. Khaury is Tiny Tim's real name. Put that in your hip pocket for some future wisdom spewage.

Thanks Flintstone for sh**ting on a man's grave.

[Don Ro]

A little change of scenery here.............
.
I boxed Golden Gloves my last 3 yrs. of high school...'60 - '63
I watched him on TV when he fought in the Olympics and was awe struck by his defensive moves...which he honed to perfection later.
If his fights were not televised, I listened on the radio to every word of the announcers.
I learned a great deal from watching him...helped me go to the regionals in Minneapolis...where I lost my first fight to a kid that went pro.
.
I'd have to say that I enjoyed watching him fight more than any other boxer. I wouldn't say that he was pound for pound the best, however.
I went to a local theater closed circuit event to watch the Thrilla in Manila.
In his later post-fight days, if he was scheduled to be on TV, I always watched.
I admired how he was (perhaps still is) the most recognized man on earth...probably mostly for his kind heart.

[Rodsrsr]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I did not state that racism was long gone in 1967. I disagreed that Clay would have had to drink from a separate water fountain in 1967. People will always be racist, even today (folks of all races...just like then). Great athletes of color were treated very well in the US and around the world then...much as now. Robert Kennedy was assassinated in '68 and John Lennon in 1980. That didn't effect water fountains either.

He just spun the story that he thought put him in the best light.

Blacks served and died at about the same rate as their percentage of the population. Over 80% who served and died were Caucasian. Only about 30% of those who died were draftees. Many folks volunteered.

Actually you did say that , in post # 54. But you are correct in that there will always be racism, however in the 60's there was blatant prejudice. There is a big difference. I find its often a waste of time to argue issues of prejudice and racism against Blacks with non-Blacks as they simply may not understand what the full effect actually is. I dont expect them to, and more than I can expect to understand what it was like to be a Chinese immigrant in the 1800's. America was founded with a huge birth defect and to minimize this is almost non rational, but in regards to Ali, you are entitled to your opinion, but it is only that, you're opinion. Your swipe about his IQ is laughable. If there is one thing Ali was known for it was being one of the most intelligent fighters. He accomplished more and was loved by more people than you ever will be. Not an insult, merely a statement of fact.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Rodsrsr

Actually you did say that , in post # 54. ..

No, I did not. this was what I/we said:

Originally Posted by Rodsrsr

There was a racial/civil rights component to his decision as well. You are looking at it through the lens of a white person. A Black man would have to go kill innocent people for the sake of the US, then come home and be told he has to drink out of the colored peoples water fountain and sit in the back of the bus. America may have been a great nation for you, but it wasn't so great for a Black man in the mid 60's.

Originally Posted by fintstone

I think you would have been correct in the late 50's and early 60's...but, by Jan '67 that was long gone. Clay was already rich and famous and lived quite well. No one asked him to kill innocent people. In fact, no one asked any more of him than any other American who served....white, black, Hispanic, Asian, native American, etc. Most did not want to go either...but, they did.

Clearly, in '67, Clay would not have had to "drink out of the colored people's water fountain". I remember 1967 quite well.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Don Ro

I went to a local theater closed circuit event to watch the Thrilla in Manila.

My Dad took me to the Nutty Professor in 1964 in a theater when I was eight. Thought it was the most awesome thing ever.

I know now that he wanted to see the Sonny Liston/Ali fight highlights before the movie.

Worked out ok. Everybody won.

[Rodsrsr]

Originally Posted by fintstone

No, I did not. this was what I/we said:






Clearly, in '67, Clay would not have had to "drink out of the colored people's water fountain". I remember 1967 quite well.

I guess in you're mind once the civil rights bill passed racism was eliminated. Blacks can now drink out of the same water fountain as White people. Problem solved. You clearly have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. The scary thing is that you think you do. A White person making the claim that racism was just about over in the 60's. I'll have to disengage from this conversation, you are too disconnected from reality to further this dialogue.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Rodsrsr

I guess in you're mind once the civil rights bill passed racism was eliminated. Blacks can now drink out of the same water fountain as White people. Problem solved. You clearly have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. The scary thing is that you think you do. A White person making the claim that racism was just about over in the 60's. I'll have to disengage from this conversation, you are too disconnected from reality to further this dialogue.

No. I corrected the notion that in '67 Ali would not have had to drink from a "colored" water fountain when he returned. I remember '67 well and lived in the deep south. The colored water fountains were long gone...and certainly were in "69 when he would have returned. I never made the claim that racism was over in the '60s...and in fact, pointed out that it is alive and well today (and not just against blacks). You should argue what I post...not what you imagine I think. In fact, you don't even know if I am white (and I don't know your race). I know I did not post mine.

I just think you and a lot of folks give Ali credit where none was due. A great boxer, yes. Anything else is questionable to me.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by fintstone

LOL. Another Political post in OT and another rewrite of history.

Ali didn't stand up to the war. He just refused to go himself. He really did not seem to have any problem with anyone else getting killed there...or any quarrel with the war or killing Asians until they lowered the IQ requirements in 1966 and his 78 IQ which had kept him deferred suddenly made him eligible for the draft.

Lots of folks had medical or educational deferments (including Ali). It seems you prefer the cowardly lawbreakers to those that were judged physically incapable and could not serve.

There is absolutely no way Ali's IQ was 78. Maybe standardized testing had serious cultural bias but 78? No way.

[billybek]

Ali did take an IQ test before being drafted. He did score a 78.
You think maybe he might have been smart enough to intentionally blow that exam?

[sc_rufctr]

You don't have to be smart to fail an IQ exam. (See what I did there...lol)

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by Tobra

He made other people look like they were moving in slow motion

go to 2:12. that is God-like vision right there. awesome.

my favorite fights to watch are the Ward Gatti fights.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by billybek

Ali did take an IQ test before being drafted. He did score a 78.
You think maybe he might have been smart enough to intentionally blow that exam?

Scoring a 78 on an IQ test is entirely different than functioning with an IQ of 78. No way did Ali function in the borderline intellectual range. His verbal skills were reknown. He performed exceedingly well in all kinds of situations. His problem-solving, ability to strategerize, reaction times, speed, dexterity, you name it, were extraordinary and well-documented. His sense of humor, his ability to manipulate people and situations and on and on are revered by millions...during his entire life he was concerned with religion and religious concepts. Nobody can say with a straight face that the boxer formally known as Cassius Clay was mentally, cognitively, socially, physically or emotionally impaired. He excelled at them all.

Did he fake it on the test? Who knows? My observation of his entire life is totally inconsistent with an IQ score of 78.