2.7 x-faktory PMO EFI Upgrade.

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by rwest

Hi Bert,

I would think mine would run cooler because it is slightly rich, but I’m not an expert by any measure.

I just plugged and took my IAC offline for work on the cold start like Al told me to several times before.

I seriously need some time off from work for many reasons, but being able to do multiple runs several days in a row would certainly speed things up.

Made several more dyno calls with no luck. One place which is very popular with Porsche folks in the area showed a dyno on their website, but a call found that they got rid of it; guy still thinks one of his techs could tune it without a dyno, but I’m picturing one tech driving while one tunes and me paying two techs! For a much more time consuming tune than on a dyno where trouble areas can be isolated and easily repeated.

Yes, in my old Piper Saratoga (plane), the rule of thumb was to run rich to cool the engine. But I think all bets are off when we change the intake and 'efficiency' (read work) of the engine due to the ITBs and electronic fuel injection. I thought about putting in a front mounted cooler, and still may, but as you note - pricey.

Sorry to hear of your tribulations on getting a dyno run - I'm actually amazed how difficult it is, so I assume there is alot of maintenance and/or tech costs that make it prohibitive. I guess the iterative trial and error approach may continue for a bit of time for the both of us. For the time being I'll be out there in the mornings on the weekend recording and analyzing and making tweaks based on my 7000+ ft altitude.

[rwest]

Hi Bert,

We have dynos all over the place here, but they are only tuning American iron or Subaru.

I haven’t given up yet.

[rwest]

If anyone is still following my “adventure”, I am starting to feel like I’m making progress now.

When I first put the system in, I didn’t get any advance showing on my timing light, but since I was new to this whole electronic ignition and the internet was saying that many timing lights won’t work with EDIS, so I just assumed it was advancing and you know what they say about assuming?

Another thread got me thinking again about the advancing or lack thereof. I reached out to Jamie Novak as he had responded to that thread and made some interesting points. So between Jamie, Al, myself, my timing light and my oscilloscope, we concluded that the ECU wasn’t right for my car- Al immediately sent me a different unit (this is exactly why I bought my system from him!) and now I have advance.

Jamie also noted that it appeared my ITBS weren’t balanced at higher RPMs- my flow gauges proved him right- I had thought that I had gotten them balanced originally, but apparently I hadn’t or something changed the setting.

A test drive afterwards really felt much better and is helping me get my eagerness back- I think I was actually getting depressed by tuning, driving, tuning, driving and never getting anywhere along with zero luck finding a local dyno tuner.

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by rwest

If anyone is still following my “adventure”, I am starting to feel like I’m making progress now.

When I first put the system in, I didn’t get any advance showing on my timing light, but since I was new to this whole electronic ignition and the internet was saying that many timing lights won’t work with EDIS, so I just assumed it was advancing and you know what they say about assuming?

Another thread got me thinking again about the advancing or lack thereof. I reached out to Jamie Novak as he had responded to that thread and made some interesting points. So between Jamie, Al, myself, my timing light and my oscilloscope, we concluded that the ECU wasn’t right for my car- Al immediately sent me a different unit (this is exactly why I bought my system from him!) and now I have advance.

Jamie also noted that it appeared my ITBS weren’t balanced at higher RPMs- my flow gauges proved him right- I had thought that I had gotten them balanced originally, but apparently I hadn’t or something changed the setting.

A test drive afterwards really felt much better and is helping me get my eagerness back- I think I was actually getting depressed by tuning, driving, tuning, driving and never getting anywhere along with zero luck finding a local dyno tuner.

Wow - great to hear, Rutager! I'm curious how you figured out that you weren't advancing - what symptoms did you have? I haven't trusted my timing light since the get go, for the same reasons you noted, and as a result, given your progress, I'm thinking I need to get some checking done as well. Thanks for any insights you might have.
Best,
Bert

[rwest]

Hi Bert,

If you hook an oscilloscope up to the SAW output on your EDIS you should see a 0-5v square wave that changes with RPM. I had the waves, but they were going negative, so still didn’t work. Here’s my photos of the scope- the lines should have been going up not down like they were. I haven’t actually put the scope back on, but my timing light now shows the same advance as the computer says- it didn’t move before.

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by rwest

Hi Bert,

If you hook an oscilloscope up to the SAW output on your EDIS you should see a 0-5v square wave that changes with RPM. I had the waves, but they were going negative, so still didn’t work. Here’s my photos of the scope- the lines should have been going up not down like they were. I haven’t actually put the scope back on, but my timing light now shows the same advance as the computer says- it didn’t move before.

Thanks Rutager. I believe in the MS II, the SAW output comes from pin 17 on the main board, but I don't know where it comes from in the MS3 - can you help me on that? As well, are you running coil-on-plug (I am)? I'm trying to get a overview on how you were able to determine you weren't getting an advance. Pardon my ignorance on these electronic ignition systems - I feel like the "iterative run-check plugs-listen for detonation on acceleration-repeat" seems antiquated with the computer sensors, or I am missing something. Thanks again!
Bert

[rwest]

Hi Bert,

I’m not going to be useful in answering the coil on plug output question. I’m using EDIS, which is a Ford ignition system that uses coil packs and one of the outputs on a EDIS module is called “SAW” and is responsible or reports advance. I don’t think COP has a “SAW” output, but I could be wrong. Have you hooked up a timing light? I’m not even sure how you do that on COP, though.

Sorry I couldn’t help you,
Rutager

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by rwest

Hi Bert,

I’m not going to be useful in answering the coil on plug output question. I’m using EDIS, which is a Ford ignition system that uses coil packs and one of the outputs on a EDIS module is called “SAW” and is responsible or reports advance. I don’t think COP has a “SAW” output, but I could be wrong. Have you hooked up a timing light? I’m not even sure how you do that on COP, though.

Sorry I couldn’t help you,
Rutager

Thanks Rutager. With the COP, to measure timing I have to set it up with an attachment that goes into the spark tube to assess - but I too have read that electronic ignitions don't measure timing correctly with the timing light. I have ignitors rather than an EDIS, so I thought the spark angle word (SAW) command would have to come from the Megasquirt. I appreciate your thinking about it though - makes me want to investigate it more to be sure I'm not missing something obvious.
Thanks again,
Bert

[al lkosmal]

Bert,
If you use a spark plug extender wire and hook your timing light to it, you will measure timing just fine. You just cant hook a timing light directly to the COPs wires as they are low voltage, triggering the ignitors.

plug one end onto the sparkplug and the other into the COP and clamp the timing light on the cable and .....let there be timing light




regards,
al
PS: No SAW signal with COPs, that is EDIS specific....Make a simple spark plug/cable extender and you will be able to verify timing with no problems.

[OSC911]

I just hook up my timing light to the wires going to the COP - works perfectly. Even works on both my kids RAV 4s and my Landcruiser. Timing light flashes like a dream.

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by al lkosmal

Bert,
If you use a spark plug extender wire and hook your timing light to it, you will measure timing just fine. You just cant hook a timing light directly to the COPs wires as they are low voltage, triggering the ignitors.

plug one end onto the sparkplug and the other into the COP and clamp the timing light on the cable and .....let there be timing light




regards,
al
PS: No SAW signal with COPs, that is EDIS specific....Make a simple spark plug/cable extender and you will be able to verify timing with no problems.

Yes - thanks Al - I made that spark plug extender. But I have read that timing is suspect using this - will check again, since I could be misinterpreting this. Much appreciate.
Best,
Bert

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by OSC911

I just hook up my timing light to the wires going to the COP - works perfectly. Even works on both my kids RAV 4s and my Landcruiser. Timing light flashes like a dream.

Thanks - I will try this as well!
Bert

[al lkosmal]

Bert, the extender works perfectly. If you can please provide the link to where you read that there is an issue using that method, I would like to read it. I've used that extender method, starting with my 1st COPs installations of Rasant systems, as well as motec, M'squirt etc. basically all of the COPs systems i've worked on.

Note: some timing lights will pick up logic level signals, which is what the MS3X and other systems use to trigger the coil ignitors, others do not and require the extender..

regards,
al

Remember, your crank trigger system just requires for you to check initial timing to ensure sync and that the M'squirt initial timing setting matches the actual timing, as verified by your timing light. I set the ignition advance to "fixed" timing at 0 degrees and verify with my timing light. The tooth #1 angle is used to dial in the timing. I.E. to set the timing at TDC. Once that is verified, you change the timing back to "Use Table" and then the timing chart controls the timing/advance......and, you can use your timing light to double check that the timing is following the chart and advancing per the chart.

You have your engine running....so this part of the process must be well underway.

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by al lkosmal

Bert, the extender works perfectly. If you can please provide the link to where you read that there is an issue using that method, I would like to read it. I've used that extender method, starting with my 1st COPs installations of Rasant systems, as well as motec, M'squirt etc. basically all of the COPs systems i've worked on.

Note: some timing lights will pick up logic level signals, which is what the MS3X and other systems use to trigger the coil ignitors, others do not and require the extender..

regards,
al

Remember, your crank trigger system just requires for you to check initial timing to ensure sync and that the M'squirt initial timing setting matches the actual timing, as verified by your timing light. I set the ignition advance to "fixed" timing at 0 degrees and verify with my timing light. The tooth #1 angle is used to dial in the timing. I.E. to set the timing at TDC. Once that is verified, you change the timing back to "Use Table" and then the timing chart controls the timing/advance......and, you can use your timing light to double check that the timing is following the chart and advancing per the chart.

You have your engine running....so this part of the process must be well underway.

Hi Al:
Yes, this is exactly the way I did it, based on our conversations which seem so long ago. I did check the initial timing for synch at TDC at tooth one, but after setting it to use table and revving the engine, I just don't get a good consistent signal from my timing light. I tried changing to an inline spark tester just to see, and results were poorly consistent. My review of the logs shows timing advance happening. I don't have the link about the timing measures, but my notes suggest that setting the timing with the dial and reading the alignment don't work since it's the time between sparks to compute engine speed and advance, but wasted spark doubles that amount per rpm so is inaccurate. Again, I may have misinterpreted this, but it suggested to me my measures (or lack thereof) were in doubt. I haven't had time yet to recheck my system the suggested ways in this thread, but will do so and report back.
Thanks again for the help.
Best,
Bert

[rwest]

We’re teaming up on this install and between Jamie and Al’s help, this EFI is starting to sing. Thanks, guys.

There is still much tuning to do, but now each time I drive it, I can tell a difference. Did another run today and I still have some real rich and and real lean sections, but only a few backfires/misfires although one was pretty loud.

I took it out of the neighborhood (where I can only drive around 20mph, because I’m not that guy!) and got on a road with a 45mph limit and put the pedal down and ran it up to 4,000RPM, okay that’s more what I was thinking ITBs would do.

Another note is that my oil temps seemed to be lower, outside temp was about 80F and I think I drove for my normal amount of time and saw about 20 degrees lower.

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by rwest

We’re teaming up on this install and between Jamie and Al’s help, this EFI is starting to sing. Thanks, guys.

There is still much tuning to do, but now each time I drive it, I can tell a difference. Did another run today and I still have some real rich and and real lean sections, but only a few backfires/misfires although one was pretty loud.

I took it out of the neighborhood (where I can only drive around 20mph, because I’m not that guy!) and got on a road with a 45mph limit and put the pedal down and ran it up to 4,000RPM, okay that’s more what I was thinking ITBs would do.

Another note is that my oil temps seemed to be lower, outside temp was about 80F and I think I drove for my normal amount of time and saw about 20 degrees lower.

Great news! Did you end up putting back the cooler you had in, that goes under the engine?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BCLi

Great news! Did you end up putting back the cooler you had in, that goes under the engine?

Hi Bert,

No, not yet. I was hoping I didn’t need to as it doesn’t have a thermostat, so on cooler days it takes the engine longer to heat up.

The cooler is just a long aluminum tube with fins that is cut into the “S” hose to the oil tank. Seems to do a decent job though.

With removing all the grease and grime from the engine, cutting the tins like the later cars, sealing the shroud openings, having better control over AFRs and ceramic coating the exhaust, I was hoping temps would be reduced. Time will tell...

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by rwest

Hi Bert,

No, not yet. I was hoping I didn’t need to as it doesn’t have a thermostat, so on cooler days it takes the engine longer to heat up.

The cooler is just a long aluminum tube with fins that is cut into the “S” hose to the oil tank. Seems to do a decent job though.

With removing all the grease and grime from the engine, cutting the tins like the later cars, sealing the shroud openings, having better control over AFRs and ceramic coating the exhaust, I was hoping temps would be reduced. Time will tell...

That truly is fantastic. You are more dedicated to the details than I am - I left the tins alone as well as the shroud. But I did put in a cooler, since there was no trombone or other cooler - just a line from the crossover valve to the oil tank. Like you, we'll see how much cooler the car runs. But exciting progress! Great perseverance.

[rwest]

Jamie sent me a procedure to work on the VE tables RPM ranges one at a time over their MAP ranges. In hindsight, I think Al also mentioned this to me, but at that stage in my understanding, It just didn’t click- sometimes the right information also needs to come at the right time!

So, I went out early enough to find some traffic free roads in farmland, but not so early to disturb the neighborhood- although I have stock exhaust and I don’t think my car is too loud, my driveway also goes right next to the neighbors bedroom window.

The procedure could be called a poor man’s dyno- you set the auto tune setting to be active, then drive the car at each RPM column and slowly add brake while maintaining the RPMs so the computer “sees” the full range of MAP for each RPM so it can adjust each cell.

I also had some good roads in the sense that they were rolling, so I could also get different MAP just from downhill engine loading.

The car does seem to be getting much smoother- I have more work to do, but roads started to get too busy to continue safely.

[rwest]

So interestingly, auto tune seems to screw up my lower RPMs- loves to turn up the gas at idle to pig rich and lean out low map settings. I set the auto tune to ignore below idle, but should have gone one more column up.

So, another good and another bad thing on my more than hour long 50+ mile drive. Good was that my temp never exceeded 210F and that was during my hard efforts- normal driving was under 200F, but it was also only 60F outside temps!

Bad was I heard a bang on the passenger side that didn’t sound like an engine misfire... and it wasn’t, something must have launched from under my front wheel and hit the passenger door leaving a couple inch scratch to primer- doesn’t appear to be a dent, luckily.