Any one running a programable 123Ignition Distributor in a 2.2?

[digitaldgp]

Curious if anyone has a programable 123 Distributor in a 1970/71 2.2 Liter engine, in lieu of the Bosch 008 or Marelli, factory distributor? Looking for the advance curve used? Thanks

[icarp]

Lots of cars running them
They r fantastic . They will be selling a old fashioned
Looking model soon.
Blue tooth is the way to go
Iacrp

[Nditiz1]

I just put one in my 2.4. They are pretty awesome. Ian (icarp) is a wizard at setting them up.

[digitaldgp]

Thanks for the replies gents.
I just installed the Bluetooth unit in my 1970 911T. 2.2 stock engine, to replace my Marelli.
I had its advance curve preset by Ed Madak, at 123Ignition.
Based on info I could find regarding the Marelli dizzy curve.

3* @ 900 rpm
17* @ 2000 rpm
21* @ 3000 rpm
26* @ 4000 rpm
30* @ 5000 rpm
34* @ 6000 rpm
Rev limit 6400 rpm

However on first test drive it feels like its loading up, meaning not pulling up to revs as it should.

icarp, do you have any numbers you would use, that would be similar to the Bosch 0 231 159 008 or the Marelli S112AX.

Looking to replicate the original advance curve settings.

Dave

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

I’d love to hear the benefits of one of these used with an updated CDI unit. Like better low RPM response, smoother running, improved MPG, etc.

[digitaldgp]

I just had my CDI upgraded to AshlockTECH CDI.
Looking forward to noticed improvement as well.

https://ashlocktech.com/ashlocktech-cdi

[Schulisco]

Originally Posted by digitaldgp

Thanks for the replies gents.
do you have any numbers you would use, that would be similar to the Bosch 0 231 159 008 or the Marelli S112AX.

Looking to replicate the original advance curve settings.

Hi Dave,

take a look here: Early 911 Distributors - Carbs-Fuel-Ignition (CFI) - Repair & Sales

Here's the desired ignition curve of the 159 008 (unfortunately poor size & qualitiy)



So it seems that the Marelli curve is too sharp/steep...but also keep in mind that the mixture also has a huge impact on the performance, a too rich mixture also cuts performance significantly...not only because it's too rich itself, the other thing you have to keep in mind is that the CDI was introduced by Porsche because of the carbs and their richer mixture causing hydrocarbond eposits on the spark plugs while being short tracked and urban usage, because the CDI created a much stronger spark than other ignitions those days and it could strike through those deposits. Probaly it makes sense to use a ignition booster like the Big Fat Spark unit or similar...

Thomas

[icarp]

Originally Posted by Schulisco

Hi Dave,

take a look here: Early 911 Distributors - Carbs-Fuel-Ignition (CFI) - Repair & Sales

Here's the desired ignition curve of the 159 008 (unfortunately poor size & qualitiy)



So it seems that the Marelli curve is too sharp/steep...but also keep in mind that the mixture also has a huge impact on the performance, a too rich mixture also cuts performance significantly...not only because it's too rich itself, the other thing you have to keep in mind is that the CDI was introduced by Porsche because of the carbs and their richer mixture causing hydrocarbond eposits on the spark plugs while being short tracked and urban usage, because the CDI created a much stronger spark than other ignitions those days and it could strike through those deposits. Probaly it makes sense to use a ignition booster like the Big Fat Spark unit or similar...

Thomas

This curve is also at 1/2 engine speed , so twice the timing at the crank.
Be careful with factory timing curves as they are set for emission standards, not performance

Ian

[digitaldgp]

Thank you everyone for the replies, and to "icarp" especially, for providing me an Advance Curve, that solved the issue I was experiencing!!

So much knowledge shared on this forum, its a true brain trust!

Dave

[Schulisco]

Originally Posted by digitaldgp

Thank you everyone for the replies, and to "icarp" especially, for providing me an Advance Curve, that solved the issue I was experiencied

Hi Dave,

would you or Ian share the changes of your new curve or is that top secret?

Thomas

[hcrubg]

just had a conversation with Ian, about my 123.
very knowledgable and patient

[icarp]

thomas,
i will post info for you
ian

[digitaldgp]

Ian, was Very knowledgeable and helpful, with me on my 1970 911T!!

Can't thank him enough!!

[icarp]

Originally Posted by Schulisco

Hi Dave,

would you or Ian share the changes of your new curve or is that top secret?

Thomas

Thomas,
For your 3.0 , this is a base curve.
It has 32 degrees total advance, most 3.0 engines run from 29-32 total advance. This is to suite the 95mm bore , smaller bores may have higher advance numbers
It is up to you to set your full advance number.
From 1300- 1800 rpm you could add 2-3 degrees if your engine likes it.
The advance from 1100 rpm and down are set to control the idle, feel free to move them where ever you want
Set MAP curve to all 0- "zero" we will talk about the Map later , it can be very helpful.

Thomas the most important step for your current set up is to have a true 0 at TDC, this is done by writing a zero curve from 500 - 3000 rpm load it to the 123 dist, start the engine , hold the timing light to the timing mark , then twist the dist so the marks line up at 0 or Z1 , then make the dist tight . There is no need for changing the dist position from now on .
All curves will be set through the app on your phone .
Install the base curve I posted , set your rev limit 6900-7000 is a good number.
write the curve to the dist , then delete all the curves in the app except the one you installed .
We do not want the bluetooth in the app to cross talk the curve numbers .

I hope this helps
Ian

[Schulisco]

Ian,

thanks a million for sharing the curve! Will do after the 123 is back from repair (pcb is toast).

Does this also fit to my cams (Webcam 20/21)??? The rest of the engine is stock as a common '81 US model from all what I know (except the Dansk exhaust). The 20/21 are in between the SC and the 964 cams, with much more torque in the mid rpms and so much top end power. How does this go with the ignition curve? Or can I use the given curve also with my car?

By the way - I still have a Bisimoto Pulse Chamber here in place, but still not mounted due to supposed street illegal sound emissions... how would a sport exhaust / metal catalyst impact on the ignition curve?

Thomas

[icarp]

Thomas,
I read your build sheet on your sig. 20/21 cam is still an emissions cam , this should be very close .
The only way to be sure you are making the engine run better is to put it on a Dyno and do very detailed tests . So a dynojet would not be the right choice in dynos.
Ignition timing is not as sensitive to hp as mixture . It is sensitive to knocking , You may be 2-3 degrees off in timing and be missing 2 hp , but if you are on the high side then knocking will be present . Stick with what I sent
Ian

[icarp]

Thomas,
I read your build sheet on your sig. 20/21 cam is still an emissions cam , this should be very close .

The only way to be sure you are making max Hp is to have an active AFR gauge in the car .
The CIS is most likely not providing enough fuel to make real Hp.
The best and easiest way to do this is to make an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and mount it between the seats
the afr numbers you want are 12.8 for power and 15.0 for high speed cruise

This is what I did , but because of our stupid laws i can not recommend or teach you how to do it
Ian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPVV04V7Zcc&t=567s

[Schulisco]

Originally Posted by icarp

Thomas,
I read your build sheet on your sig. 20/21 cam is still an emissions cam , this should be very close .

The only way to be sure you are making max Hp is to have an active AFR gauge in the car .
The CIS is most likely not providing enough fuel to make real Hp.
The best and easiest way to do this is to make an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and mount it between the seats
the afr numbers you want are 12.8 for power and 15.0 for high speed cruise

This is what I did , but because of our stupid laws i can not recommend or teach you how to do it
Ian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPVV04V7Zcc&t=567s

Ian, thanks again!!

Yes, the 20/21 is afaik one of few cams compatible with the CIS.

I already know the video and I also noticed that time your "special" setup of an adjustable WUR. I agree with you that an AFR gauge is the very best way to control the mixture.

Your statement that the CIS does not provide enough fuel for power is pretty interesting:
Due to troubleshooting my car I installed in the beginning a button (still have) to control the CSV (cold start valve) manually from the dashboard to identify if the enegine runs too lean or too rich either (before overhauling the CIS completely). I pushed the button over 4000rpm and then I felt the first time that I was riding a Porsche...incredible difference! After the overhaul I had some time an AFR gauge installed but never felt the same as pushing the button. So it might be real that the CIS still does not deliver enough fuel for top end power...I have to figure this out. Probably it makes sense the add additional fuel through the CSV on WOT over 4000rpms...

Thomas

[icarp]

Thomas
I will send you a pm
We should talk on the phone , too much to say here
Ian

[icarp]

Go back to post #8

This is an example of a smaller (2.2) bore and a cam with more overlap
The years are different as well, try to understand how they all dictate the curve
It is a fun excersise