Sage-like Advise Needed: First Air Cooled 911 Purchase

[JoeMartini]

A bit of background on me. I have spent the past few months researching the various generations, their flaws and advantages, and price points. My goal is to add a 911 as a second car, for driving and PCA/Cars & Coffee events on occasion. I also want something I can work on as needed. I’m not skilled enough to rebuild an engine, but brakes, suspension, and the odd performance part I can handle and would enjoy doing. So given all that, I am looking at two generations: the 78-83 SC and the 84-89’s. Quality wise, I am not overly picky. I am looking at a driver’s quality car and prefer near original but some mild outlaw attributes are ok.

Now on to the advice. I saw my first 911 today and I am trying to ensure I am not being emotional in my evaluation.

The car is a 1978 SC Targa ordered in Oak Green Metallic with Black trim. It has 98k miles and was in storage from the late 90’s till now. Documented from purchase till now. Current owner did a number of things to get her running again. asking 40K.
First the mechanicals: Engine was rebuilt, runs and idles well on cold start and warm. No smoke and she is bone dry underneath. I will confirm health with a compression and leak down before purchase.

Transmission: This is tough for me to judge as I am unfamiliar with the 915 but I drove it with little issue, hit all the gears, though I felt a bit of resistance getting into gear on occasion when shifting. Is this normal? It felt more rpm related to me.

Body: straight, gaps are even but the bad part is, it was painted a different color, and it WILL need a repaint. PO basically painted the outside of the car a red metallic, and the under hood, decklid, doors and door jambs are black. This is cosmetic but it really bugs me. Its like a cheap earl scheib $99 paint job. It looks ok from the sidewalk but once you open the door it’s a horror show IMO. If I get the car, I would want this corrected quickly. That’s $10-15K if my research is correct.

Interior: Beautiful original cork with original carpets is good shape, seats have no noticeable wear and may have been recovered. The rear deck was replaced with a black cover and will need to be corrected.

Suspension and brakes seem to be original so work will be needed to assess and replace bushings and the like.

Targa top is in ok condition, the frame was painted gloss black and looks like it could have used a sanding. The material used was a convertible top material. It fits on the tight side, not sure if that is normal. Locking it down took a bit of effort.

So I am open to thoughts on my assessment. I am not sure if this could be a good deal or not. I am currently assessing it to be in “Good condition” on Hagerty’s scale, which they price at $45k.

[brianlay]

You're right not to get emotional...I would keep looking.
Is the engine rebuild documented?
You might be underestimating the cost of the re-paint.
Posting a few pictures would help us give a better assessment.
I'm wondering why any air-cooled seller wouldn't sell it on BaT where they all seem to get top dollar...or maybe the paint job is really that scary?

[HarryD]

Standard advice:

Always get a PPI by an air cooled Porsche shop.

Buy the best, in terms of condition, 911 you can afford.

If it feels wrong, don’t buy it.

[PeteKz]

Ya want "sage advice"? Sheesh, I better get off the stage and wait for John or Neil or Henry to jump in...

Nah, here goes:

What is your budget and where are you located?

1. It's easy to fall in love or lust with a 911, so first advice is DON'T buy the first one you look at! Spend the next 6 months or so going around and looking at many of them. Test drive them, see how they compare. Develop your knowledge. For that reason alone, rule this one out.

2. "There's no such thing as a cheap Porsche." You will pay up front for a good one that is well maintained and sorted, OR you will pay on the back end to make it so, and usually end up spending much more. Know your budget, then buy the best one you can find in that range. With this car, you are going at that backwards.

3. Correcting a bad paint job is expensive and a lot of labor. Forget about $10-15K. And forget about doing it quickly. I would not touch this car for that reason too. If someone threw an "Earl Scheib" paint job on it, what else did they cut corners on? What is that paint job hiding? Short answer--lots. Almost certainly hiding body work, otherwise why repaint the car with only 98Kmi? No sensible person would do that. Do you want to buy a used car from a non sensible owner?

4. Engine "rebuilt" at less than 98Kmi? Why? There are a number of 911's with "rebuilt" engines at or before that mileage. I still don't know why, because the SC and Carerra engines are very durable. Thus, usually, something went wrong--what was that? Did the owner cheap out on the rebuild? Was the car in a crash? Given the paint job, my strong guess would be "yes." All rebuilds are NOT the same! That's true for American iron V8's but even more so for 911 engines, which are much more complex. If he doesn't have receipts for about $20K for the rebuild, discount that claim.

I could go on with the critique of this car, but let me back up a bit and review your choices.

78-83 SC: At this point in the development, the bodies are all galvanized, and much less subject to rust, however, at this age, if the car lived in the salt-belt areas, it could still have rust lurking. The engines are aluminum cases, which are much more durable than the magnesium cases of the earlier cars. 3.0 SC engines are about the most durable Porsche ever built. 915 transmission. Budget 45-55K for good driver cars that don't need anything done soon.

84-86 Carreras: Externally almost identical to the SC series, except for some special editions and options with wings, etc. The engine grows to 3.2 liters and gains the Motronic engine management system. Car gains about a hundred pounds. Power, efficiency and drivability improve. Same 915 transmission. Look for the limited slip differential too. Add $5k to your budget.

87-89 Carreras: Externally almost identical to 84-86, except for special versions or options. Same engine. Car gains about 50 more pounds. Big change: G50 transmission which shifts much better, IMO. You should drive several of these to compare to similar mileage 915's. Maybe you think it's a better experience, or maybe it doesn't matter to you. If you want the G50, add another $5K to your budget. Make sure the transmission has the limited slip diff too

Brakes and suspensions are all pretty much the same and interchangeable. Lots of aftermarket support, so prices are relatively reasonable. The exterior trim bits and interior parts are stupid expensive, so you want to make sure all those parts are in good condition, or the price reflects what needs to be replaced. Seat covers and carpets are available from many suppliers, reasonably priced and not hard to DIY.

Last advice: Even after you think you have developed your understanding, when you find a car you are serious about, get an independent PPI by someone who specializes in air-cooled 911's, as HarryD also advised.

Walk away from this one.

Off the stage, PK

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by PeteKz

Ya want "sage advice"? Sheesh, I better get off the stage and wait for John or Neil or Henry to jump in...

Nah, here goes:

What is your budget and where are you located?

1. It's easy to fall in love or lust with a 911, so first advice is DON'T buy the first one you look at! Spend the next 6 months or so going around and looking at many of them. Test drive them, see how they compare. Develop your knowledge. For that reason alone, rule this one out.

2. "There's no such thing as a cheap Porsche." You will pay up front for a good one that is well maintained and sorted, OR you will pay on the back end to make it so, and usually end up spending much more. Know your budget, then buy the best one you can find in that range. With this car, you are going at that backwards.

3. Correcting a bad paint job is expensive and a lot of labor. Forget about $10-15K. And forget about doing it quickly. I would not touch this car for that reason too. If someone threw an "Earl Scheib" paint job on it, what else did they cut corners on? What is that paint job hiding? Short answer--lots. Almost certainly hiding body work, otherwise why repaint the car with only 98Kmi? No sensible person would do that. Do you want to buy a used car from a non sensible owner?

4. Engine "rebuilt" at less than 98Kmi? Why? There are a number of 911's with "rebuilt" engines at or before that mileage. I still don't know why, because the SC and Carerra engines are very durable. Thus, usually, something went wrong--what was that? Did the owner cheap out on the rebuild? Was the car in a crash? Given the paint job, my strong guess would be "yes." All rebuilds are NOT the same! That's true for American iron V8's but even more so for 911 engines, which are much more complex. If he doesn't have receipts for about $20K for the rebuild, discount that claim.

I could go on with the critique of this car, but let me back up a bit and review your choices.

78-83 SC: At this point in the development, the bodies are all galvanized, and much less subject to rust, however, at this age, if the car lived in the salt-belt areas, it could still have rust lurking. The engines are aluminum cases, which are much more durable than the magnesium cases of the earlier cars. 3.0 SC engines are about the most durable Porsche ever built. 915 transmission. Budget 45-55K for good driver cars that don't need anything done soon.

84-86 Carreras: Externally almost identical to the SC series, except for some special editions and options with wings, etc. The engine grows to 3.2 liters and gains the Motronic engine management system. Car gains about a hundred pounds. Power, efficiency and drivability improve. Same 915 transmission. Look for the limited slip differential too. Add $5k to your budget.

87-89 Carreras: Externally almost identical to 84-86, except for special versions or options. Same engine. Car gains about 50 more pounds. Big change: G50 transmission which shifts much better, IMO. You should drive several of these to compare to similar mileage 915's. Maybe you think it's a better experience, or maybe it doesn't matter to you. If you want the G50, add another $5K to your budget. Make sure the transmission has the limited slip doff too

Brakes and suspensions are all pretty much the same and interchangeable. Lots of aftermarket support, so prices are relatively reasonable. The exterior trim bits and interior parts are stupid expensive, so you want to make sure all those parts are in good condition, or the price reflects what needs to be replaced. Seat covers and carpets are available from many suppliers, reasonably priced and not hard to DIY.

Last advice: Even after you think you have developed your understanding, when you find a car you are serious about, get an independent PPI by someone who specializes in air-cooled 911's, as HarryD also advised.

Walk away from this one.

Off the stage, PK

Great comments. I would add that many call a valve guide replacement an engine rebuild. At around 100k, many need their valve guides replaced due to excessive oil use.

THis is a good read: https://www.pelicanparts.com/911/technical_specs/911_guthrie_faq.htm

[ErrorMargin]

I bought my first 911, an 84 Targa, just a few years ago: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1984-porsche-911-carrera-targa-30/

I pulled the engine and transmission earlier this year and am working through several projects: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1984-porsche-911-carrera-targa-30/

Here are a few thoughts for you:

The highest priority for you is a pre-purchase inspection by a highly reputable shop. Post your location here and you will get suggestions on where to take it for the inspection.

For me, the only dealbreaker is rust. If the PPI finds any notable rust, the car is a hard pass. All other issues are acceptable at the right price.

In the PPI, after rust, the leak down test is probably the next most important, and after that the transmission tests. The transmission should not make excessive noise, and should upshift and downshift under heavy load through all gears.

If the car is relatively original, has no rust, hidden body damage or significant leaks and passes the leak down testing and transmission tests, and the wiring harness is not hacked to bits with modifications, then I'd be prepared to buy at a premium.

After all that, unless you are sure that the fuel lines have been replaced with ethanol compatible lines, I'd plan to pull the engine and replace all the fuel lines front to back as a first step after you buy it. A fuel leak could destroy the car the moment after you buy it. You can replace the AC lines, vacuum lines and address many other potential issues while you have the engine out.

If you confirm the above points that the bones of the car are in great shape, then buy it, address the key remaining issues and enjoy for many years to come.

Personal preference note: With such a great original color, I'd repaint to that Oak Green Metallic....after all the other issues above are sorted.

Keep us updated with your next steps.

[esample]

I would figure the paint job to be closer to $20K and six months. You could easily spend another $10K correcting the issues you’ve mentioned which will doubtlessly lead to several “while I’m in there” items. Proceed with caution.

-e

[Mark Salvetti]

Too bad, oak green metallic is a cool color. But if the door jambs are black and the exterior is red, this car has actually been repainted twice.

Agree with the others, it's a pass.

Mark

[Bill Douglas]

Joe, I think if it was so unloved to get such a crap paintjob, other aspects of it will be unloved too.

There are some really nice ones around. And it's so much easier to buy one already nice than to do or pay for all the fixing to bring it up to standard.

I'm biased, but I think the 1982 to '83 coupes are the pick of the bunch. And get one that is a nice color too.

[Alan L]

I am with Bill on the pick of the era for the cars. Of course there are other options, but it is hard to go wrong with that make and era. I spent ages going thru the same scenario before getting my SC. Still love it after 20+ yrs.
I am with PeteKz on his critique. It can be hard to walk away after setting your sights on something - but this one does have a bunch of red flags. Red flags on a 911 =$sss. Honestly, a really bad one, if someone gave it to you, you might be lucky to break even on getting it in good shape - with no account of your time. You want something that looks a bit more honest - since you are not the guy to do a complete teardown and suck up the unexpected.
I bought my 930 off the internet - runs like stink, freshly rebuilt engine, blah blah. That turned out to be a hastily replaced 2nd hand piston/cylinder, and it was 2 steps foward and one backwards, at least 2 engine outs, and a fistful of $s for the next 18 mths. Luckily I could do it all myself, but I nearly threw it in the parts bin at one point.
Alan
Edit. It is a bit like buying a house. Once you have looked at them until you are sick of it, when you find the right one, you will know it straight away, and be able to make a quick confident decision and sale - which is often a benefit in your favour. Because by then you know what you are doing, and looking for.

[Funracer]

Originally Posted by Alan L

Edit. It is a bit like buying a house. Once you have looked at them until you are sick of it, when you find the right one, you will know it straight away, and be able to make a quick confident decision and sale - which is often a benefit in your favour. Because by then you know what you are doing, and looking for.

This exactly.

[shoooo32]

An Oak Green over cork early SC would be an amazing car, but you can't make the numbers work with this one. The "rebuilt engine" is probably just head stud replacements and a reseal. Without receipts from a reputable shop, it' doesn't really add value. If it needs paint, suspension, brakes, and all of the little things that nobody tells you about (fuel lines!), starting at $40k will have you under water quick.

[OsoMoore]

Yikes, I remember when we used to say on here "every Porsche is a $20K car" - if you paid less than that you'd catch up to it fixing things.

Keep looking and don't rush. I looked for six months before finding an SC. Passed on a lot of cars, finally found one from a Pelican and now I have a great car.

[porsche930dude]

Originally Posted by OsoMoore

Yikes, I remember when we used to say on here "every Porsche is a $20K car" - if you paid less than that you'd catch up to it fixing things.

Keep looking and don't rush. I looked for six months before finding an SC. Passed on a lot of cars, finally found one from a Pelican and now I have a great car.

Yeah glad thats when I was looking. I dont think iv even hit the 20k mark yet knock on wood. I was looking for 5 years and bought the first one I stumbled on. It was perfect.

[JoeMartini]

Wow, Thanks to all who responded. There is more good advice here than I expected. I decided to pass on the car for many of the reasons mentioned by all of you.

The search will continue as my list of potential colors grow:
78-80 Petrol Blue
86 Iris Blue, Prussian Blue or Arrow Blue
78-80 Olive green or Oak Green Metallic

These are colors approved by my oldest daughter, who will learn to drive manual transmission in it and inherit the car some day. True story, she loved VW Bugs till she saw a 911. I told her "you know why you like 911s?" and proceeded to tell her who designed them, etc.

[Alan L]

Cool.
Be patient (they have been around for 40+ yrs) and I would suggest looking at several that are not the right colour. That will give you a good feel for the market and quality of what is around. So when you find one of the right colour you should have a good idea if it is worth proceeding. Use the others as intel gathering. Who knows - you may be knocked over by one not in the correct colour.
And as has been stated before - make any purchase conditional on a PPI - by a knowledgeable P shop/tech . These cars are unique and if you don' t have experience with them important stuff can easily be missed.
Alan

[ClickClickBoom]

Porsche prices are all similar. Buy cheap and you will have to add money, to get to the car, you could have bought and driven home. There are enough to create a very stable pricing points.
That being said buy the best car you can afford, if you can’t buy the car you want, move to the next one.
If you think plumbers and electricians are expensive, call a few Porsche shops. For every dollar you spend on upgrades, your value on resale will be $ 0.40 on the dollar if you are lucky. Let the other guy spend his money and enjoy the discount. Boomers have driven the prices sky high, then they get the car and spend volumes of money, get the car back and then realize the car is small and hard to get in and out of, clutch pedals aren’t as much fun as they used to be, etc. I have driven 911s since 2005 and BMWs before. My 1984 Carrera has almost 180k mi and it’s my only car, daily driver. It takes a licking and keeps on ticking. If your car has to meet smog requirements the CIS cars have their own challenges, the DME cars are getting hard to source parts, as well, fuel injectors are unobtainium. I am using aftermarket and they are even getting hard to source.
Driving a 40 year old car has always had its challenges, be aware. Get an electrical problem prepare to be stymied, I have all the manuals and have been an Aircraft Mechanic since the early 90’s. In a 40 yer old car there will be gremlins, which are solvable, given enough time, either yours or your mechanics. Search my posts for some examples.
That being said they are going to bury me in my car…….

[Ironman88]

I would recommend driving a coupe prior to making the decision on a Targa.

I've always been a "sports car = open car" person. I owned an '87 911 Targa which was a very nice car. I have an '88 coupe now - and it is so much better. Much more solid. (The targa was a 20k mile all original car.) The '88 is a fully restored car with 82k on the clock.

Point being - after driving a coupe, you'll clearly know if you have a preference.

[JoeMartini]

Well, it has been a few months since I asked for all this great help which I put to good use and I am happy to share I finally found a car in July out of California, a 1978 911SC Coupe!!



The car checked out well, had a few good updates done in its life and was even one of my favorite colors, Petrol Blue. The car had 118k miles, is mostly original, no accident damage and a fair amount of documentation (but not for its entire life), including the original owners book, the original removed exhaust system, tool-kit, etc. The second owner rebuilt the motor to Euro (ROW) 9.5:1 compression and updated 964 cams. Other updates include turbo tie rods (with bump steer kit), stainless steel brake lines, SSI headers and exhaust, light flywheel, MSD ignition / with rev limiter, and updated the trombone oil cooler. Over-all a great car to drive. I'll post more photos and share some of the work I've already done to get her better sorted shortly.

And I'm going to have LOTS of questions too!

[jac1976]

Congrats! Great looking car and Petrol Blue is awesome.