Auto A/C Refrigerant Substitute??

[Jim Sims]

How soon we forget the difference between flammability and autoignition temperatures and information about R-134a toxicology:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=232130&perpage=20&highlight=flammability&pagenumber=3

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by Jim Sims
How soon we forget the difference between flammability and autoignition temperatures and information about R-134a toxicology:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=232130&perpage=20&highlight=flammability&pagenumber=3

Considering the way the idiots drive on the roads around here, the type of gas in my A/C lines is the least of my worries 99% of the time.

Joe A

[twopoorsche]

Apology accepted.

I admitted to Enviro safe (Randy) that i over torqued the fitting, which is why I was surprised at his comments.....but I'll leave that story alone.

After further research, what concerns me is that Enviro Safe appears to be the same hydrocarbon formulation as Duracool, etc, which is illegal for use in cars, according to the EPA. While I am the antithesis of someone who believes that "government is good for you", I am concerned about using a product that is highly flammable and illegal.

I have owned enough Porsches to know that refrigerant leakage is a problem. Freon 12 is too expensive to constantly replace; 134 (and Freeze 12) leaks worse than Freon 12, and the hydrocarbons are illegal and highly flammable.

I AM frustrated with trying to find the solution to the puzzle.

On the other hand, I am such a nerd that I won't drive my oil cooled cars when the temp is over 90 degrees. The sunroof works just fine.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by twopoorsche
On the other hand, I am such a nerd that I won't drive my oil cooled cars when the temp is over 90 degrees. The sunroof works just fine.

Why? We drive ours in Phoenix all the time with proper oil and oil coolers with no problems. As long as you keep the oil temps below 240 or so there is no problem. This weekend is the first weekend forcast with temps below 100 for the last 2.5 months.

This is the same as a airplane engine and they fly all the time when its hot, just with precautions for the heat. If your A/C system has a leak then fix it and drive the car. This is not rocket science but plain jane air conditioning.

If you want to let your car sit, then thats ok but not to drive it because "its too hot outside" then there is something else going on...

JoeA

[kuehl]

Originally posted by DG624
Twoporsche, thanks for the insight...there are many claims but few solutions. If you are an engineer then you must know how the AC affects the engine (heat, power drain, stress...) so do you think the AC is even worth the effort? I guess in very hot climates but the air cooled engine will lose longevity under high heat conditions. Every "expert" on this board has recommended against heat for the 911.

I looked at the "update" from Keul where the radiator for the AC is placed near the CAT, the hottest place on the car. I really don't think these after market solutions work long term. I have never had a car with AC (although Ohio is never really hot) and think it is better to forget the whole thing and just roll down the window. I am also reluctant to use any product that increases global warming or loss of ozone.

DG624.... with respect to Our Kuehl fender condenser systems

1) We have over 300 rear fender condenser systems, for the 911 and 930, on the road for approximately 4 years now. The first few units had the fan mounted on the "cat" side. Of these few units only one had a melt down.
The next revision placed the fan on the outer side. Since then no melt downs have been reported with respect to damage to the condenser assembly as a whole or component parts thereof; no cat. cars, cars with cats., stock exhaust systems and non-stock systems,
nor turbo's with stock and non stock waste gates. Heat is not an issue. Nor for the matter is road debri an issue as the unit is protected with a stone guard. If you a not familiar with the assembly, it is mounted on vibration mounts, supported with stainless steel brackets and stainless steel hardware and includes a stainless steel heat shield on the header side.

2) By adding an additional condenser outside of the engine compartment you reduce the heat load which the engine would normally see from the stock deck lid condenser, hence lower air inlet temperatures to
the engine fan.

3) For example, a few weekends ago it was 102F ambient, sunny day at noon time. Our "black" top 87 cabriolet, equipped with our standard Kuehl fender condenser, the Duehl Kuehl unit and Kuehl evaporator, started out with cockpit temps pushing 120F plus. We took a quick drive to test a new R134a refrigerant charge, as I recall 24 ounces. After driving between 40-50 mph for 10 minutes we had a steady 42F at the center vent on full fan speed (this car has a variable speed fan control, so that would fan speed 3 on a stock system), and the cockpit temperature measured at the back of the driver's head (to avoid direct air pushed by the vents) was 69F. These temperature measurements were taken with an NIST traceable digital thermometer. With regard to engine temp, all I can say since we did not have a standalone probe in the oil line or engine, the engine temp needle stayed in the middle all day long, with the a/c on and with 102F ambient. With respect to compressor life, the high side pressures never exceed 245. There is more to this story relating to not having the thermostat freeze out capillary tube properly inserted in the evaporator core which lead to an ice packed evaporator running (minus) -7 F! (in case you wondered: this was later determined by running an additional thermometer probe adjacent the freeze out capillary tube in the evaporator and observing the Kuehl Variable Speed Fan Controller's LED light).

4) Though this car is convertible (I just finished the 40 hour install of a new top and will sub it out next time) and it is a pisser to drive with the top down doing 145 on the way to Hershey, air conditioning comes in handy on damp days or for when we have to add a passengar to our manifest.


Bottom line: there are many products, whether they be in the realm or refrigerants or components ("solutions") in the aftermarket that do work and will increase the longevity of your engine and more importantly the longevity of owning a Porsche 911 or 930.

[84toy]

I have just purchased a kit of 'freeze-12' which is supposed to be a direct replacement for R-12. I haven't tried it yet, but the descriptions make this stuff look like what everyone is waiting for... Any experience with this stuff out there?

I tried it in my old Chevy truck. The results were less than exciting and went back to R12. Much happier now YMMV

[TroyGT]

I have an 86 Carerra, what kind of refridgerant came in my car from the factory... R12 or R134?

[kuehl]

R12

[john baldwin]

PatrickB,
Does ES-12a leak like R-12?
Would it be beneficial to install barrier hose?
At $6 per can I might not care, but if it helps keep me on the road and out of the A/C shop it might be worth it....?
Thanks

[PatrickB]

yes and... yes.

I'm only seeing about a 25-30* difference in outside temp vs. center vent now. Most important lesson learned? If you are noticing a drop in cooling performance, don't "top it off." The mixture is ever so important. Evacuate the system, vacuum, THEN refill! I'm considering barrier hoses, and the new heavy duty front condenser kit. Pro -Cooler r/d made a significant change as well!

If you change out the refrigerant at the beginning of the summer season, you should be good through fall!!

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by john baldwin
PatrickB,
Does ES-12a leak like R-12?
Would it be beneficial to install barrier hose?
At $6 per can I might not care, but if it helps keep me on the road and out of the A/C shop it might be worth it....?
Thanks

One thing to remember. R-12 and ES-12 have molecules that are close to the same size. R-134 have molecules that are MUCH smaller.

This means that if there is any leak in the system and its not corrected, switching over to R-134 will result in your leaking out the coolant gas sooner than it would using either of the above gasses.

Even at $6 a can its worth not wasting (remember the earth we live on here guys) so if you have a leak try to find it then recharge the system. One of my cars has had ES-12 in it for 4 years now and still works excellent. Outlet temps were in the low 40's last time I checked.

[DRACO A5OG]

Hey Patrick!

How's the ES12 Holding Up these days?

I am in midst of converting from R12 for your baby's sister

Jim

[kuehl]

If you change out the refrigerant at the beginning of the summer season, you should be good through fall!!

Whether you are using R12, R134a or whatever, if you have a leak you have a leak and the leakage rate does not usually stay static. Leakage rates are related to pressure and time, so the more you use it the more you lose it.

How's the ES12 Holding Up these days?

You can still buy the stuff.
However it is still not on the EPA's approved or disapproved list (SNAP) of alternative refrigerants, and probably will never be if the manufacturer continues to market the product as they have (simply rationalize that it does not have to be submitted to the EPA for review as it does not need to be; can you say "loophole"). But at least the manufacturer is forthcoming (finally) about the basis for the concerns, as quoted from the mfg's website:
Enviro-Safe Refrigerant may be used to replace HFC 134a and R12 substitutes in the majority of states within the United States. Enviro-Safe advises that you refer to your local, state and federal laws governing the sale and use of any refrigerant.
If their marketing was really up to par they would publish a list of the states; imagine buying the stuff and installing, and then finding out your local governing body says "no".
At least the manufacturer is acknowledging the key concern here, quoted from their site: Enviro-Safe™ Refrigerant is flammable to an open flame or spark and is rated as a Flammable Gas 2. This means there is a moderate chance of fire or flame. However, flammable products are used every day within the household, business and in automobiles.
I like the last statement. "Hey bartender. Pour me another. I have a long drive home".

Yeah. I can see us all pumping in some more flammables, especially in cars that date back 30 years, having refrigerant hoses that leak, hoses running adjacent to fan motors that have been known to fry on their own or alongside of high voltage plug wires or in engine compartments with aged wiring.


"YOW. BARTENDER, WHERE'S MY DRINK?"
"Here you go Sonny. Enjoy":

[Joeaksa]

Drove my car with ES-12 in it and had outlet temps hovering around 40 degrees.

Outside temp was 107-110 at the time.

[dentist90]

Is designed to replace R134a & R12. It’s not only environmentally friendly, but runs more effectively as well.*
Includes installation hose with colour-coded gauge
All natural, non-ozone depleting refrigerant Runs cooler with colder vent temperatures
Oil analyzer and low side service fitting included

Currently available for sale in Canada for DIY'ers. This is a very economical replacement for R12 systems, avoiding the 134 conversion. If I had a leaky A/C system I would be a bit worried about the risk of turning the back of the Porsche into a barbeque. However, I believe a slow leak would stay below combustion levels. The real risk would be if a hose/coupler/condensor broke... say in a collision?

[Joeaksa]

The real risk would be getting in a collision and having the 20 gallons of gasoline explode. I will take my chances with 25 ounces of a mixed gas any day over the contents of the gas tank.

[JBO]

About 4 yrs ago my 1992 BMW quit blowing cold, and the mechanics said: 1. It had a leak 2. I needed to convert it to R134 and replace receiver/dryer, evaporator, etc, for around $1,500, and it wouldn't work as well as it did with the R12. Car was only worth about $4,500, but I needed A/C. So, what the heck, ordered Freeze 12 kit off ebay for about $50, evacuated, added leak stop that came with the kit and the Freeze 12, and it has worked great ever since. Blows as cold as it ever did with R12. Have not even had to recharge. Thus I would definitely recommend it and use it again. When my 911 needs a recharge (and I may be at that point now) I will try it in there as well.

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Whether you are using R12, R134a or whatever, if you have a leak you have a leak and the leakage rate does not usually stay static. Leakage rates are related to pressure and time, so the more you use it the more you lose it.


You can still buy the stuff.
However it is still not on the EPA's approved or disapproved list (SNAP) of alternative refrigerants, and probably will never be if the manufacturer continues to market the product as they have (simply rationalize that it does not have to be submitted to the EPA for review as it does not need to be; can you say "loophole"). But at least the manufacturer is forthcoming (finally) about the basis for the concerns, as quoted from the mfg's website:
Enviro-Safe Refrigerant may be used to replace HFC 134a and R12 substitutes in the majority of states within the United States. Enviro-Safe advises that you refer to your local, state and federal laws governing the sale and use of any refrigerant.
If their marketing was really up to par they would publish a list of the states; imagine buying the stuff and installing, and then finding out your local governing body says "no".
At least the manufacturer is acknowledging the key concern here, quoted from their site: Enviro-Safe™ Refrigerant is flammable to an open flame or spark and is rated as a Flammable Gas 2. This means there is a moderate chance of fire or flame. However, flammable products are used every day within the household, business and in automobiles.
I like the last statement. "Hey bartender. Pour me another. I have a long drive home".

Yeah. I can see us all pumping in some more flammables, especially in cars that date back 30 years, having refrigerant hoses that leak, hoses running adjacent to fan motors that have been known to fry on their own or alongside of high voltage plug wires or in engine compartments with aged wiring.


"YOW. BARTENDER, WHERE'S MY DRINK?"
"Here you go Sonny. Enjoy":

Love this picture. The only one time anyone has taken of a photo of what was allegedly a car fire due specifically to a refrigerant that was other than 134a or R12. Did you witness this and know the "victim?" I suppose if anyone is risking running refrigerant through any system that has the original 30 year old OEM hoses is taking a chance. Install new hoses and fittings and other components and you will likely be OK.

I suppose riding a motorcycle is also inherently dangerous, but many folks still do... I would imagine that more people were hurt or killed as a pedestrian, than anyone using HC for refrigerant in their car... $6 a can for ES, or $200 for R12, $100 for 134... Tough call!
Under inflated tires cause death too, but too easy to blame the manufacturer instead... Just ask Firestone! Remember the panic Ford Explorer owner's went through a few years ago? All because MORONS were running their cars with severely under inflated tires...

To answer your question Jim... I"ll be removing my A/C system very soon, as my car has evolved into a race car... My front condenser (original 23 year old) has developed a leak, as well as my compressor (original 23 year old) is spitting oil... This just recently has happened while beating my car to death on the track for the last 2 years. For the little time I drive it during the summer, I'm not going to repair it. While the system was still functioning for the last 2 years, it worked very well with ES. JoeAksa is the man to ask! He suggested I try it, and I had great results. Ask the guy who lives in the hottest part of the country, IMHO! I think Joe runs ES in his Jag too with very excellent results in the 120* AZ summer!! The results Joe has had should alleviate your fears!

I have heard others say that many of the HC products available aren't quite as good as ES, including my Porsche mechanic.

I've got a couple of extra cans if you want to try it!

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by PatrickB

Did you witness this and know the "victim?"

No. I did not witness this car fire. I believe it happened on July 11, 2004 in Wichita, Kansas. I was fishing that day. However. If you want to read the about the 'who, where and why' you can visit a post here:
http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/Porsche_928_Refrigerant_Fire.php
and there is a recount on the Rennlist.

Originally Posted by PatrickB

I suppose if anyone is risking running refrigerant through any system that has the original 30 year old OEM hoses is taking a chance. Install new hoses and fittings and other components and you will likely be OK.

That is "likely" the objective here.

[3.2 CAB]

Hey, whatever happened to0 the good'ol days, when the testing tool for a freon leak on a car was one fuel by a bottle of propane or MAPP gas, instead of the sniffers and UV testers we have now??? I guess that one could see a car burn up every time one of the old flame testers would have been used on one of the new, supposedly "safe" drop-in replacement refrigerants.

If any of my vehicles still run on R12, I use R12, if they have been converted to 134A, or came from factory with 134A, I use 134A, and I still use R22 in the central units in my houses. I have several 30lbs jugs of R22 stashed away, several jugs of 134A, and even a couple of cases of R12, along with a couple of virgin jugs stashed away. So I guess that I am set for the next few years or more.