911 and E30

[Todd Simpson]

Ha! I posted a thread ticked off that the car wasn't as nice as described! I've since had it out with the PPI mechanic and the dealer and it should all be resolved later today. The car can easily be put right again and I'll enjoy the project.

The E30 M3 group at S14.net talk about the $15K rule, just like we talk about it for SC's. Few of the cars out there are really loved the way they need to be and there are several notoriously weak areas. Sounds familiar.

[dd74]

Originally posted by SoCal911SC
Good E30 M3s are getting really hard to find. A lot of them have been tweaked out by people trying to "improve" them. Really nice, decent mileage, original ones seem to be climbing in value ($20K+). I've been on the casual lookout for a nice one at a reasonable price for years.

Yes, I just looked for the hell of it on some classifieds sites. I saw none!

[Todd Simpson]

Autotrader usually has a bunch, with bimmer.org and s14.net with a few as well.

[ncoder]

Good for grocery gettin'
Not afraid of having it look a little skuffy.

And it's still fun to throw in corners.

[jinos]

Originally posted by chaf
Yeah, absolutely. There are a few things I like better about the handling of the 911 - hard to describe, but the thing just hooks up once you get it turned in. Something about the Porsche rear suspension works really really well. That said, the M3 is so much more nimble and tossable, and it turns in like nothing else I've ever driven.

Agreed. Is there anything I can do to make the 911 handle like my e30 m3? I love my porsche, but I just can't get over that my m3 smokes it on turns. Especially canyon runs.

[jinos]

Originally posted by Todsimpson
Something's wrong there...the US E30 M3 is about 6.9 0-60. 195HP, 170TQ and almost 2800 lbs.

ROW got some cooler versions, up to 230hp or so with 16's, nicer spoilers and other upgrades.

I just picked up a '91 E30 M3 this week and it is indeed a very cool car. I love the buzzy four cylinder and the 4:10 rear.

A swap may be faster but who cares, the S14 four is like a 2.8 MFI. Sure you can swap in a 3.6 but you've lost character in the deal.

On the e30 m3 there were diff kinds such as EVO1 and EVO2.The EVOs came with a diff spoiler in the front and back. The engine came in a 2.3 and a 2.5 which produced 225hp. Alot of people just convert their 2.3 to 2.5s. The stock 1990 e30 m3 did 0-60 in 6.7 sec in an article from grassroot motorsports.

[Porsche Head]

Not an E30, how about an E28 M5 and a 72E, does that count?

The M5 is chipped with an alum flywheel, strut brace, Dinan lowered susp, 740 bushings, 850 brakes, people still ask if I just got it painted It's about a 5.8 to 60 car.

[chaf]

Originally posted by jinos
Agreed. Is there anything I can do to make the 911 handle like my e30 m3? I love my porsche, but I just can't get over that my m3 smokes it on turns. Especially canyon runs.

I'm no expert, but I have a bad feeling that the 911's might just never have super-fantastic turn-in, simply by virtue of having so little weight on the front wheels. Also don't forget that the suspension design on the M3 is 20-some years newer; that has to help a lot. Subtle funny things go on with the geometry; for instance the M3 can run way more caster because it has power steering.

But that's all about feel; it does also seem to me that the 911, despite not feeling as nice at turn-in, somehow manages to extract more g's from its tires in the middle of a turn than the BMW's. Lower center of gravity? Some other magic? I have no idea. I do know that I'd love to be able to compare lap times of the two cars back-to-back, but I doubt I'll ever get the chance.

If I were to hazard a guess, I might guess that my 911 SC, at least, would benefit from more camber in front, more roll stiffness in the front, and A LOT more roll stiffness in the rear.

[Danimal16]

Wow what a great thread.

I love both of these cars. I love to wrench on each and need to learn the fine art of go fast and safe driving. But what the heck, thats what it is all about. Also, since I got back from the war about a year ago and the wife ran off with another guy during that time, both cars are great for meeting great people. Life is good, get a dog.

Funny story, "Blondzilla" ran out on me, took the car, took the dog and anything else she could carry. I didn't know about the boy friend, didn't know where she was hidding my 325i. Found out about the boy friend, as the daughter of one of my Navy shipmates witnessed her at the gym, sucking face with the guy. Well, using a little bit of that Navy Intelligence training things got interesting. Found out where he lived, Blondzilla did not know I new about Frankendick and one day after patiently waiting I drove by HIS house. There was the Bimmer, got out my spare key and drove it off. She learned two things that day.

Cop friend of a friend reported back that they got a laugh out of that one when she said it was taken from her boyfriend's house by her husband.

YES I LOVE MY 325i Sedan, great during the week and that weekender 911 is a blast, especially without blondzilla. (Currently the BMW has a little extra-special meaning).

So what kind of dog should I get?

Danimal

[donstevens]

Originally posted by dd74
[B]
And can a standard E series BMW be modified up to a level of an M3?

"

Not Really. I had a 210 HP engine in an E30. I had e class Mecredes big brakes, Bilsteins all around, sticky tires, etc and the E30 M3 still beat me on the track. Despite the fact that I may be a "tremendous slouch" behind the wheel, they are just not the same. An E 30 M3 is a thouroughbred.

Don

[jinos]

Originally posted by chaf
I'm no expert, but I have a bad feeling that the 911's might just never have super-fantastic turn-in, simply by virtue of having so little weight on the front wheels. Also don't forget that the suspension design on the M3 is 20-some years newer; that has to help a lot. Subtle funny things go on with the geometry; for instance the M3 can run way more caster because it has power steering.

But that's all about feel; it does also seem to me that the 911, despite not feeling as nice at turn-in, somehow manages to extract more g's from its tires in the middle of a turn than the BMW's. Lower center of gravity? Some other magic? I have no idea. I do know that I'd love to be able to compare lap times of the two cars back-to-back, but I doubt I'll ever get the chance.

If I were to hazard a guess, I might guess that my 911 SC, at least, would benefit from more camber in front, more roll stiffness in the front, and A LOT more roll stiffness in the rear.

But I have to admit that my 911 gets the attention from women while the e30 m3 gets the attention at the track or races. Here's some photos.

[jinos]

Originally posted by jinos
But I have to admit that my 911 gets the attention from women while the e30 m3 gets the attention at the track or races. Here's some photos.

And here's my first 911 sc

[Jeremy Cottrell]

Originally posted by Porsche Head
Not an E30, how about an E28 M5 and a 72E, does that count?

The M5 is chipped with an alum flywheel, strut brace, Dinan lowered susp, 740 bushings, 850 brakes, people still ask if I just got it painted It's about a 5.8 to 60 car.

That certainly counts! I think you may have the ultimate combo there. An M5 is a great daily car. Comfortable, smooth, ferociously quick for getting on freeway onramps, and stylish to a fault.

[deathpunk dan]

Lets clarify something right now. An E30 325i/is is a FAR better *street* car than an E30 M3. End of story, especially with the correct minor mods. The E30's S14 is a great track engine, but not great in the real world of traffic jams and around town driving. The E30 M3 beats itself to death on rough roads. And there is no way in hell an E30 M3 -stock- is doing 0-60 in 5.5, more like 7 seconds. An E36 M3, though poo-poo'd now as boring by many, is a very capable car and even an E36 325is/328is is easier to drive fast than the vaunted E30 M3. Having said that, an 88-91 M3 is a *BLAST* to drive, especially if you squint and pretend its the 1990 DTM series

And the other poster is correct, there is a $15k rule to all E30 M3's.

I had one, sold it for a Corrado VR6 which my sister totalled, now I have a modded E36 325is.

[Todd Simpson]

I'm gonna dispute that the M3 suspension in newer or better. It's the same layout, struts in the front and trailing arms in the rear.

Where the 911 is much better is in adjustability. Front caster, camber and ride height all can be changed easily while in the rear ride height, camber and toe are all adjustable, though a little more difficult.

How much adjustment is in a stock M3 suspension?

[wfbal]

I agree with Deathpunk,
because of it smoothe M20 engine, the E30 325i/is is a FAR better *street* car than an E30 M3. And it can be as fast as a stock E30 m3 with the correct minor mods.
It is very easy to replicate the M3 suspension (same weight, same chassis) and a 4:10 diff will cancel the straight line accelaration advantage of the M3 (on the street).

On the track it is a different story, the m3 will always be more balanced (a little less weight in front), has more clearance for big tires and if you can keep the rev very high, does produce more power.

I agree that the e30's are better balanced than 911's, but the steering feel on my SC is way better than my 325i's.

[KillerDynoSoar]

Good thread.

Makes me wanna go drive my BMW and my Porsche and appriciate the gems I have even though the average Joe may think they are just old cars.

[chaf]

Originally posted by Todsimpson
I'm gonna dispute that the M3 suspension in newer or better. It's the same layout, struts in the front and trailing arms in the rear.

Where the 911 is much better is in adjustability. Front caster, camber and ride height all can be changed easily while in the rear ride height, camber and toe are all adjustable, though a little more difficult.

How much adjustment is in a stock M3 suspension?

It's the same layout, yes, but suspension design gets so complicated in the details - I mean, to take a simple example I know well, drive an M3 back-to-back with a 325iS. There's a lot more difference in those two suspensions than just springs and shocks. Even if you get the same camber, toe, tires, etc. set between the two, the M3 still has the kung-fu grip by comparison. The big difference there is that the knuckle at the bottom of the strut has different geometry.

Now, comparing the M3 to the 911... The most obvious big difference, which may or may not itself matter, is that on the E30 unlike the 911, the front control arm has no bushings in between the strut and the car - it uses ball joints instead. The M3 can run way more caster because it has power steering. In the rear, the trailing arm angle is very different between the cars. There's a thousand little differences like this, which don't show up in the numbers one usually sees (because there's little if anything you can do about them) but which do have an impact overall. Saying the M3 and the 911 have the same suspension is kind of like saying the 996 has the same engine as a Subaru Legacy because they're both 24v flat-sixes. The Subaru example is not meant to diss the 911 suspension; it was just the easiest analogy I could think of

And yeah, lack of adjustability is the biggest weak point design-wise in the M3 - there is none, other than toe.

[Dan J.]

Interesting discussion.

It seems to come down to what a person wants from a car. I have had a 2002, then drove an '89 325i for a while (talked my mother into buying it), then a '72 911E (sold to buy a Crossle Formula Ford) and most recently had an E36 325is which after only 18 months I sold in order to purchase an '86 Carrera.

The 2002 was fun to drive in a light/nimble but high CG sort of way, but it lacked grunt/power. The E30 325i had much of the light nimble feel of the 2002, but more tire, more refinement (for 15 years ago) and that wonderful motor/shifter/steering. It wasn't the absolute fastest car, but in real-world driving situations was a hoot to drive. In both cars, you didn't have to go dangerously super-fast to be entertained on public roads.

The most recent E36 I had was a great car in almost every way. Refined, quiet, powerful, handled great, good mileage...etc. I never bonded with it though. It didn't have much character, and felt a bit heavy. I think part of the issue with that car was that it was so capable that you had to be going stupid fast for it to have any fun. It was a bit of a pig to autocross.

The '86 Carrera (now with GHL and a Wong chip) is one of those cars that's fun to drive around even at social speeds. It's visceral and communicative...and now a bit burbly but not quite roucious with the exhaust. It's not quite as fun to drive around town as the '72 911E (with sport muffler), probably because it's a bit heavier, quieter and more civilized than the Carrera.

Anyway, as cars have become more sophisticated they get easier to live with on a daily basis...but perhaps at the cost of character.

I was visiting my folks last week and took a spin in my dad's '00 540i 6-speed. Fast, fast car. You've got to be going warp speed to have any fun in that thing though and way to big/heavy for track days and autocross. You'd go broke supplying it with fresh brakes and tires. Last week I was fortunate enough to sample a car from the other side of the spectrum, a Superformance Cobra (with a 514 SVO crate motor). Talk about character!

Dan J.

[deathpunk dan]

Dan

You are spot on. There is no way my E36 325is with bilsteins/H&R gives me the same grins from sheer driving the way my 83 944, 86 CRX, or 92 Corrado did. I only wish grins could trump everything else.